Navy Officer From Iowa Barred From Entering Mormon Temple

Des Moines Register ^ | 6/19/02 | Vess Mitev

[marshmallow]

A Navy officer from Denmark, Ia., was barred from a Mormon temple in Nauvoo, Ill., on Monday because of his behavior during a previous visit.

Rocky Hulse first toured the new temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on May 21. At the end of the tour, he said, he asked a temple official where the cross was located in the church.

[Restorer]

was anyone ever prosecuted for the happenings at Mountain Meadows?

Just one. J.D. Lee was the designated scapegoat. He was eventually tried, convicted and hanged at the site of the massacre.

He was certainly guilty. He was equally certainly no more guilty than a great many others who got off scot-free. The entire organized Mormon militia of the area participated.

The evidence is that B. Young told the Mormons of the area to leave the emigrants alone, unfortunately a couple of days after they had been slaughtered. The evidence indicates that he and other Mormon leaders had been guilty of some remarkably intemperate language which contributed to the tragedy.

They also closed ranks and participated in a very effective cover-up. Had Brigham Young wanted to, he certainly could have made the entire truth of the episode available to investigators within days.

[Dead Dog]

Because Satan prefers to husband his resources to concentrate on REAL threats.

I should convert to Judaism.

[wai-ming]

Thanks for your comments on this issue, Jeff.

I guess it's all a matter of definition. Something that Mormons and "Christians" will be debating for a long time. Under some definitions (such as acceptance of the early Christian "creeds"), even Mormons would not consider themselves Christian.

By the way, if we define Christian using the "by their fruits ye shall know them" criteria as well as your stated beliefs, I would consider you a very good Christian.

I will keep reading and learning more.

[wai-ming]

Likewise by that argument, Christ, the apostles, and the early christians were not christians!

Very interesting observation.

Again, it comes down to a matter of definition. Mormons need to realize that they are not Christian by some people's definitions, and "Christians" need to acknowledge that they (Mormons) are by others'.

[Illbay]

The thing to remember is that definitions such as this based on what some dubious "authorities" decided at the outcome of a political fight 1,500 years ago don't have to bind us today, any more than the endless metaphysical discussions about the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Christian orthodoxy has changed dramatically since that time. About that time there was a severing of ties between the eastern and western branches of Christianity the repercussions of which are still felt today.

However, it isn't typical that eastern orthodox and Roman Catholics go to war over the issues (except perhaps verbally; witness the many, many, many "schism" threads on the Religion forum).

Most of those who fret and worry about whether "Mormons" are Christian are the same ones who lambaste Catholicism as "paganism."

They're just labels, and since they exist only to create separation they really serve no useful purpose.

In the end, "Mormons" are desirous of spreading what we consider the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We aren't really interested in "ecumenical dialogue," though we respect and work with members of all religious faiths in many areas of endeavor. We want others to hear the gospel message, and ideally they will become converted.

But even there, we realize that it is the Holy Spirit that converts someone, not our meager efforts.

[Grig]

"Again, it comes down to a matter of definition. Mormons need to realize that they are not Christian by some people's
definitions, and "Christians" need to acknowledge that they (Mormons) are by others'."

I have no problem with someone saying 'in my opinion Mormons are not christians', people are entitled to their opinions. When they outright declare it as if it were a fact however, I object.

The word 'christian' has a widely accepted meaning you can look up in any dictionay, and Mormons are christian by that definition. To say Mormons are not chrisitans causes people to think we do not fit that definition and that is just false. If they want to be accurate, they can say we are not orthodox chrisitans.

[RnMomof7]

Look for me tomorrow for that discusion on baptism Tracer...:>)

[RonF]

O.K. Now you got me curious. So, I did go to the dictionary. First one that came up in Yahoo, The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. Here are the definitions that I got out of it:

Mormon Church

NOUN: A church founded by Joseph Smith at Palmyra in western New York in 1830 and having its headquarters since 1847 in Salt Lake City, Utah. Its doctrines are based chiefly on the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and other revelations made to church leaders. Also called Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Christianity

SYLLABICATION: Chris·ti·an·i·ty
PRONUNCIATION: krsch-n-t, krst-
NOUN: 1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. Christians as a group; Christendom. 3. The state or fact of being a Christian. 4. Inflected forms: pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties
A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.

Christian

SYLLABICATION: Chris·tian
PRONUNCIATION: krschn
ADJECTIVE: 1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings. 3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. 4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. 5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
NOUN: 1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English Cristen, from Old English cristen, from Latin Chrstinus, from Chrstus, Christ. See Christ.

Hm. Nothing in the definition of "Mormon Church" says "Mormons are Christians". The reference to the full formal name is a hyperlink in the original web page, and is circular; it just says "see 'Mormon Church'".

[Elsie]

There are SO MANY OTHER scriptures that reinforce this: We are required to obey the commandments.

Good luck...........

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Deuteronomy 5
1. Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them.
(1 thru 10 go here.......)
22. These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

 

 

2 Corinthians 3
3. You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4. Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God.
5. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.
6. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant-- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8. will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9. If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
10. For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory.
11. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12. Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.
13. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.
14. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

 

 

 

Galatians 1
6. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
7. which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

 

 

Galatians 5
1. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
3. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
4. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
5. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.
6. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
7. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?
8. That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.
9. "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."
10. I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be.
11. Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.
12. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13. You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.
14. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
15. If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
17. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

[Elsie]

Rocks.....

I post nothing but scripture, and you get huffy!

Sheesh!!!

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Oh, I see. So that explains why all the different Protestant churches have announced plans to combine, right?

No more than the branches of Mormonism.

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Are you as adamant against Catholicism as Jack Chick?

No - I'm not. But I posted the same Scripture to them, also.

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The problem is; I don't BELIEVE your stuff, and YOU, on the other hand, claim to believe MINE!

Massive logical disconnect occurs............

[Illbay]

You continue to try to equate the commandments that the Lord Himself gave us, with the Law of Moses. Either you're sincerely confused or you are deliberately trying to be slippery here.

Simply stated: Do you believe you have no obligation to try to live in accordance with the teachings of Christ? Do you believe that whether you do or don't make such an attempt makes NO DIFFERENCE as to how you will be judged in the eternities?

I believe you're working SO HARD to make "Mormonism" seem radically different from mainstream Christian belief that you are doing contorted backflips.

It just gets bizarre after awhile. We may differ substantially on many points of doctrine, but on the doctrine of salvation by grace, there is not a large disparity.

[Elsie]

Remember, the great majority of US, even TODAY, came from your various sects.

Sadly, you are right. It shows what a sad situation exists in the teaching in our denominations........

Our people learn bits and pieces, but fail to put it all together.

I'll have to admit, until I got this computer and had the ability to do searchs thru the Scripture, I was just like them. Our culture is quick, fast, drive thru, sound bite, 10 second attention span and hardly anyone has the discipline to read - read - read anymore.

[Elsie]

In contrast our Church is growing steadily and vibrantly. Within the next 50 years it will be larger than any Christian sect other than Roman Catholicism.

Gosh: at that rate, you'll have to tear down your barns and build new ones!

[Elsie]

The church Christ established had the authority to baptize but that authority was lost in what we call the Great Apostacy.

Ok, just WHERE in the NT is this 'authority' given?

[Elsie]

You're doin' a GOOD job!

 

In a revelation given by Joseph Smith the Mormon people are exhorted to "confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest."

(Doctrine and Covenants 71:7)

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#273

No, but I have asked this question many times before and not gotten a straight answer.

You've gotten a straight answer: it just wasn't one you are willing to accept.

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#275
Fine, I'll be more specific: We view traditional Christianity as being quite different DOCTRINALY from ORIGINAL Christianity (and also as lacking authority from God).

You have to be MORE specific than this!  WHAT differences????

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#275

Our church has changed how some doctrines are put into practice, but no doctrine has been changed or dropped, and yes I'm including both the matters of polygomy and who gets the priesthood in that. If you think those represent a change in doctrine, then you are mistaken.

 

 

D&C 132

 

  VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many ^awives^• and ^bconcubines^•—

 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

 Therefore, ^aprepare^• thy heart to receive and ^bobey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting ^acovenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye ^bdamned^•; for no one can ^creject^• this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

 For all who will have a ^ablessing^• at my hands shall abide the ^blaw which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

 And as pertaining to the new and ^aeverlasting^• covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my ^bglory^•; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

 

 

OD Official Declaration 1

I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.

The question is this:

 Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

 

The 'Official Documents of the Church' seem to disagree with you.

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#282

The only way is by personal revelation (James 1:5).

Make up your mind!  What's all this stuff the prophet spouts supposed to mean then?

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#293

The record for the past 170 years is more exponential.

(Big families MAY have something to do with it!)

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[Jeff Head]

I suppose it is up to each individual to decide regarding their own definition.

Our Savior told us that we would know them by their fruits, He also said He was a God of love and that if we loved Him we would keep His commandments and take up our cross nad follow Him.

For me, a Christian is someone who truly believes in and follows Jesus Christ as their Lord, their Savior, their Redeemer, their example for life. It is someone who believes this, seeks after it, desires it and works at it because of that sincere desire of their heart. It is someone who is "converted".

It does not mean they do not make mistakes, but neither does it mean that they don't care if they do make mistakes ... because every mistake they make meant more pain for Him, they seek to eliminate those mistakes from their lives and be more like Him.

If that is the desire of their heart, even though imperfect, their burden and the work required to do this are made light by His love and His atonement ... as He said, "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy burden and I will give you rest. For my burden is light."

If an individual is not sincere in their faith, then the burden is correspondingly harder becasue they desire other things more than they do the Christlike lifestyle.

Although none of us can make the final judgement, and we should not attempt to try, I believe that one who professes Christ but does not change in their heart and make the attempt out of that change to live as Christ would live, should suspect their own conversion.

But, all of that is just me and I have gone on more than I intended.

Best regards.

[Elsie]

it is still a true doctrine and we are still living it by NOT taking plural wives when the conditions are not met.

So..... you are trying to convince us that NO ONE, in your 'rapidly expanding sect', meets the REQUIREMENTS for multiple wives today?!

[Elsie]

You continue to try to equate the commandments that the Lord Himself gave us, with the Law of Moses. Either you're sincerely confused or you are deliberately trying to be slippery here.

Slippery indeed! Scripture seems to have that effect on some of us......

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Just what ARE 'the commandments that the Lord Himself gave us'?

(No, I'm NOT 'sincerely confused'. You tend to limit the response available when you TRY get me to choose one of YOUR outputs.)

[Elsie]

we would keep His commandments and take up our cross nad follow Him.

Jeff, perhaps YOU can answer what His commandments are, as I may have ticked off Illbay again.

[Jeff Head]

He said to love God with all our heart, might, mind and strength.

He said to love our neighbor as ourself.

He said quite a few things for us to do in the Sermon on the mount.

He said to be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

He said if we loved Him we would keep His commandments ... which certainly implies that he gave a number of them and is a directive to those of us who call ourselves Christian and supposedly love Him as our Savior and Redeemer.

He said to take up our cross and follow Him.

He told us (by conveyance or extraction) to go into the world and preach His gopsel and baptise those who believe.

His entire life and they way He lived and acted are a "commandment" if you will to the true Christian IMHO. We should follow Him, try to be like Him, cease to do things we must repent of that caused Him pain, etc.

Sorry to interject, but in responding to wai-ming above I saw your post and had a few thoughts ... probably more than a few ... probably too many.

Regards.