The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[ET(end tyranny)]

Addendum:

Besides, one cannot say that this New Covenant is already made and existing because the Christians have been restored to the land of Israel and their ancestor's faith. See how strange that looks and sounds. The word 'christian' doesn't belong in there.

I should clarify this one a bit. Since it wasn't the 'Christians' that were sent into exile, but the 10 Northern tribes of Israel, it will be these descendants that will 'turn their ways' around (back to the ways of YHWH) and be restored.

[DouglasKC]

Then you deny Jesus' own words. Luke 24:36-40 36 Now while they were talking about this, Jesus Himself took His stand among them and said to them, Peace (freedom from all the distresses that are experienced as the result of sin) be to you!
37 But they were so startled and terrified that they thought they saw a spirit.
38 And He said to them, Why are you disturbed and troubled, and why do such doubts and questionings arise in your hearts?
39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself! Feel and handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.
40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

The resurrected Jesus Christ CAN NOT be made out of created material. He is the one that created all matter, both seen and unseen. The substance he is made out of has to be eternal stuff, the same stuff as God the father, stuff that is not of this world. He must be made of this stuff or he is no longer God or part of the Godhead. Do you understand?

Now this particular verse is after the resurrection. Notice that Christ miraculously appears in the midst of his disciples. Naturally they are startled. Who wouldn't be if someone just popped into existence?

Biblically spirits, other than Gods, seem to be me mostly evil things. The disciples most likely thought they were dealing with a familiar spirit, a spirit that appears to be someone else but really isn't. This happened in the old testament when a medium called up a spirit that pretended to be Samual for Saul (1 Samual 28).

Jesus wants to let them know that it is REALLY him, not a familiar spirit, or a spirit pretending to be him. I don't know what a spiritual body looks like. Do you? There is nothing that says a spiritual body can't have what appears to be flesh and bones. And this is God we're dealing with here. He very well could have just created an incarnation body to reassure them.

But his real spiritual body can't be anything that is part of the physical universe. It can't be created.

1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

This verse says the same thing. Created matter can not inherit eternal things. They are on differenet planes of existence.

[DouglasKC]

The soul is in the blood. Adam was a living soul because he had blood, right?

I would agree with that. Animals were also living souls, and they were created before Adam:

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarmers having a living soul; and let birds fly over the earth on the face of the expanse of the heavens.

The word soul is the same word used to describe Adams' soul.

Paul indeed gives us the makeup of man. Spirit is the human spirit, the power of our intellect, that which makes us human, not animal. Body is our fleshly body. Soul is the life in that body.
The resurrected body will have no soul/blood, right?

The resurrected body of saints, those who repent, are baptized and received God's Holy Spirit, will have resurrection body with no blood. Techinally they will have no "soul" because bibically soul refers to fleshly life.

But the general resurrection, the great white throne judgement, will be a physical resurrection. This is prophesized in detail in Ezekiel 37 and summarized in Revelation 20.

[restornu]

Sound like they somewhere in those years you lost touch they must have become LDS.

Before 1982 I too use to do things that now I haven't done since.

[restornu]

Then you deny Jesus' own words.

Please explain what you mean snerkel?

[restornu]

I am glad to see the blackout hardly effected you!

You just kept on moving along:)

So what power do you have?

I was off line from 4:15pm on the 8/15 to 7pm 8/16!

Light were restored by dawn and phone & cable 7pm.

[OLD REGGIE]

In spite of being the accounting dept's PC and Lotus 1-2-3 guru -- programing applications thru macros (those were the days!) -- I fell for the Mac in '84 and was a die-hard "Mac evangelist." But, when I made the move to full-time programming in my day job, I also left the Mac behind and joined the Dark Side for good in '95. My last Mac was a Centris 610 with a DOS Compatibility Card in its expansion slot running Windoze 3.1 ;O).

Do you remember the first video recorders? Sony's Beta vs VHS? Beta was a far superior product but Sony refused to license the technology. Where is Beta now. It can be found in professional environments but where else?

Apple was, and probably still is, a superior product but Steve Jobs refused to license it's technology (except for one short lived adventure - too little and too late).

In both cases it is based on the supreme arrogance of the "owners".

In the meanwhile the average household has many more "windows" than "apples".

IF IT'S A WINDOW IT IS BOUND TO BREAK!

[OLD REGGIE]

Then perhaps I'm not clear just what you believe about who Jesus was.

I was under the impression you didn't believe He was God, in the sense He was a separated part of God the Father, similar to when God gave certain people His Spirit in the OT, to accomplish certain task.

You are partially correct. I don't know whether Jesus was/is God and I don't believe He claimed to be so.

I also don't believe it is necessary to accept the Trinity for salvation. A belief in God is all that is necessary.

Then when that Spirit finished His task on earth, He returned and melded into God the Father once again.

Does that make any sense to you?

I dunno. I believe Jesus was "one with God" in the same sense that He wished for you.

John 17:
11: And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

Do you believe Jesus wanted you to become God?

[OLD REGGIE]

Do you believe that all who fail to be saved, are sent to a real place called hell, for eternity, never to be released.

Do you believe it possible that those who fail are reincarnated until they "get it right" and some who do "get it right" are reincarnated to be "teachers"?

[OLD REGGIE]

Anyone thought about the last post? I don't know about yall but for some reason I have lost the desire to play the number/spam game. JMO, but I think the last post ought to be Malakhi's directing anyone that might stumble across this thread to the next one.

Well, I have no intention of "going for" the last post, but it would be nearly impossible to assure it went to Malakhi unless he was encouraged to spam the last 25-50 or so.

[restornu]

John 17:
11: And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

***

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

***

Here we see Jesus do as he see his Father do!

We here are too do as we see Jesus do, for he was taught by the Heavenly Father and came here to teach us. We are offsprings who are in a probationary state to see how many of us going through the refiners fire will endure to the end! To do the will of the Father!

John 5
17 ¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

[RnMomof7]

Let me ask you a similar question to what I just asked Becky. Do you think what you describe here is at all analogous to the incarnation? The Word of the LORD clothing himself with the human person Jesus? Or do you have a better way of explaining it?

Mal , In the OT The Holy Spirit enabled men for a specific purpose .

It is not only not analogous to the incarnation (Fully God and Fully man). it is not analogous to the indwelling Spirit that is found in the saved, because it is a constant presence that convicts of sin and leads to truth .

I would go out on a limb and say the analogy is better that the believer is clothed in Christ

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

[RnMomof7]

That is not what the Orthodox Jews teach.
"According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come."

When some one is bent toward legalism the more laws the better.

Look at the 600+ that man made out of Gods ten...

[RnMomof7]

God did not give those 66laws to Noah , that is mans interpretation on how to keep them. Reminds me of not healing on the Sabbath as part of Gods law..God never said that ..sinful man always has a better way !

[RnMomof7]

My vote is for Doug's glorified spiritual body.

Have you left the World wide church? Doctrinally you seem to lean their way

[restornu]

I am here!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/656646/posts?page=65106#65106

[RnMomof7]

39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself! Feel and handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.

Do not confuse them with scripture Snerkle

Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, 'It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?' But He was speaking of the temple of his body." John 2:19-20,

Jhn 20:27   Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.     
Jhn 20:28   And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

The interesting thing about this encounter is That Jesus had the wounds of His crucifixion , and what convinced the doubting was that it was indeed the physical body of a man they saw laid in the tomb. It is the physical resurrection that confirmed who Jesus was. The jews believed in angels and spirits. Only the tangible body of the risen Christ would have satisfied the doubting

He ate with them

Luk 24;41   And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?      42   And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.      43   And he took [it], and did eat before them.

Again I believe to verify his physical resurrection

He was raised physically, but His body was a glorified body. It was the same body, but it was different. 1 Cor. 15:42-44 says, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1 Cor. 15:53-57, "For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[nobdysfool]

I would go out on a limb and say the analogy is better that the believer is clothed in Christ

Absolutely correct! Our life is also hid with Christ in God. Christians are not just indwelt by the spirit of Christ, they are also IN Christ. We are in Him and clothed with Him, so that when God looks at us, He sees Jesus. Our righteousness is not our own, it is the Righteousness of Christ. Our redemption is based on this fact, that we, through faith in Him, are IN Christ, united with Him in His Death, Burial (by baptism), and Resurrection.

[RnMomof7]

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Here, Paul gives us the make up of man The pneuma (spirit); the psyche (soul); and the soma (body). Obviously, the three are distinct and Paul uses "soma" to refer to the physical body.
Paul indeed gives us the makeup of man. Spirit is the human spirit, the power of our intellect, that which makes us human, not animal. Body is our fleshly body. Soul is the life in that body.
Paul prays that our entire existence, who we are, will be preserved BLAMELESS until Christ returns. That's exactly right. If who we are is not sanctified and that sanctified body preserved then there is no basis on which a spiritual body can be created...we would be sinners and unable to become eternal at Christ's return.

Was Jesus recreated?

We are saved by the righteousness of Christ. Not by our "sanctification" which will not be complete until we are with Him

The problem with your theology is the un-santified lost will also be raised in the general resurrection

. And the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them, in the clouds, to meet the Lord the air" (1 Thess. 4v 16-17)

Rev 20:6   Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. .

Rev 20:15   And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The scriptures indicate the resurrection of all men saved and unsaved.

It DOES NOT say that man has eternal life already, it states Paul's wish that God will grant them the mercy to in their physical life to remain IN Christ until Christ returns.

Doug think about this ok?

I have eternal life, every saved man and woman already has eternal life . That life began on the day I repented and believed

 Jhn 3:15   That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jhn 5:24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

  Jhn 11:25   Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

My eternity began on the moment of my new birth .

[RnMomof7]

Does this designation mean they are fairly new to the LDS?

It probably means they have not gone through the "endowment " ceremony " So they are not "Temple worthy " members