The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[CindyDawg]

See Luis Gonzalez' thread today with the names of killed and MIA. A lot are from Texas. One of the MIAs from Brownsville.

[CindyDawg]

Funny. You should sub GB's name for the cowboy though.

[saradippity]

So would it be correct to say that Jesus Christ was an Israelite from the tribe of Judah,who was born in Nazareth?

Thanks for all the info.any thoughts on the Karaites?

What do you think Jesus was referring to when he spoke of the Jews,who were not Jews,who were from the "Synagogue of Satan"?. He mentions this in Revelations,chapters 2 and 3,in John's letters to the churches.(I don't know how they were referred to in the original).

Incidentally,I asked you about this before but only recently noticed that I was reading the Douay-Rheims;however,I was looking in the NAB r and it was not worded the same way.I also noted that the D-R letters to the churches all end using the word "overcome" in the last sentences,whereas the NAB uses victor or conquer. Not nearly as powerful as repeating the same word to each church,in my estimation.

With all of the confusion in the world,nations,religions,tribes,races and sexes I can't help but think that much that is happening now mirrors what was happening at the time of Christ and His warnings about who could be trusted and who were God's is important for us now.I am far less wary of the Satan,who states he is not with us than of the one who claims he is with us and who lies.

[SoothingDave]

It would make an interesting study. Perhaps we should dole out seats in the electoral college based upon military enrollments per state.

SD

[malakhi]

So would it be correct to say that Jesus Christ was an Israelite from the tribe of Judah,who was born in Nazareth?

As our friend Steven would say, his name would have been Yeshua, or something very close to this. "Christ" is a title, not a surname, of course, being the Greek equivalent to moshiach, meaning "annointed". His real name would then have been something like Yeshua ben Yosef.

As far as being of the tribe of Judah, that seems most likely, since they predominated in the southern kingdom. But by this time, with the exception of the Levites there were no real tribal affiliations remaining. Since some members of the 10 northern tribes had come south prior to the destruction of the northern kingdom, it is likely that most Jews at the time were of a mixed tribal background, with Judah predominant.

The assignation of Nazareth as the hometown of Jesus is problematic. Many scholars think that the proper expression is "Jesus the Nazarene" or "Jesus the Nazirite" referring to his political/religious affiliation rather than to his hometown.

Thanks for all the info.any thoughts on the Karaites?

They claim, of course, that they are the original Jews, but objective history suggests that they emerged in the 600-700s as a reaction against rabbinic Judaism. If you are interested in learning more about what they believe, check out http://www.karaite-korner.org/index.shtml.

Gotta run. I'll get to the rest of your post later tonight.

[OLD REGGIE]

I think my interest was piqued on this recently when some Catholic Church bishops came out with a draft saying the "Old Covenant" is still in effect,which seemed worth thinking about. but that led me to the question of "OK,but with who?"Any thoughts or information would be appreciated. Thanks.

The "Old Covenant" draft is nothing new.

Catholic Catechism
121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

When the Old Testament was written there were no Christians.

IOW, I dunno, but I imagine the "New Covenant" applys to Christians only and the "Old Covenant" applys to all of us in some way.

[saradippity]

Yes,I believe that the Old Covenant has never been revoked and that it applies to all of us,but the piece I am chewing on is just who were the "Jews",with whom God extablished the Old Covenant?

I thought it was established with the Israelites and that the Southern Kingdom was home to two tribes,Judah's and Benjamin's, and somewhere in there I think there were some Levites.I also thought Jesus came to bring the kingdom to the tribes of Israel that were lost.This all made sense until I started reading the posts on the Neverending thread and it occurred to me that at the time of Christ's crucifixion there were more people involved than Romans and Jews,(and who those "Jews" were are.a mystery to me)and that's where my trouble started.Truthfully,my trouble started long before that on unrelated matters.

Now it seems to me,and I could very well be way off base,that all the things we read about,hear and/or see, cannot be understood if we don't know what or who we are talking about.

Two people I know well are Jewish,one a "cultural" Jew,is very pro-Israel and was delightd the President went to Iraq for whatever reason. The other a more religious Jew has been out with the war protesters several times. I myself have developed a wonderful postiion,I hate any war but if we are in trouble now it is all Clinton's fault and I will not discuss Bush or the war until they admit his culpability.It helps in discussions with them and some "social/justice", democrat catholics that I was always trying to get a group of them to march in protest with me against our entry into Kosovo.Talk about a cult of one. Any thoughts to add to,or diminish my confusion?

[RobbyS]

I have never quite understood why he was called Jesus--a Greek name--if he actually was known by a Hebrew namw during his lifetime. Maybe he had both Greek and Semitic names.

[SoothingDave]

I have never quite understood why he was called Jesus--a Greek name--if he actually was known by a Hebrew namw during his lifetime.

Don't you think it has something to do with the corruption brought about by the evil hellenizers?

SD

[saradippity]

Please forgive,I think I transgressed. I seem to recall that this thread was not to mix religion and politics and people,or comething like that. I am afraid I went beyond the agreed upon limits. Sorry.

[SoothingDave]

I don't think you have any reason to apologize. The thread's just been slow lately. I don't think anyone's offended.

SD

[al_c]

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Thursday, April 03, 2003
Lenten Weekday

First Reading: Responsorial Psalm: Gospel:

Exodus 32:7-14 Psalm 106:19-23 John 5:31-47 Let the heart of them rejoice that seek the Lord: seek ye the Lord, and be strengthened: seek His face evermore.  -- Psalm civ. 3,4

The following is, as usual, from The Word Among Us:

There once was a prominent sports figure who had a desk plaque that read, "I am third." An interviewer noticed the plaque and asked, "What exactly does that mean?" "Very simple," he answered: "God is first, others are second, and I am third." Though this athlete had confidence and a healthy self-esteem, he realized that the greatest calling in life is to serve others. In today's reading, we see that Moses had these priorities, too. Look at how he responded when God threatened to give up on the rebellious people he had brought out of Egypt and, instead, raise up "a great nation" from Moses and his descendants (Exodus 32:10). Rather than look forward to such a bright future, Moses declined the honor and interceded for the people instead.

Yet, as humble as Moses was, he could also be bold. He demonstrated a kind of bold humility that always considered the spiritual needs and interests of others ahead of his own. Moses was meek--more humble than anyone else on earth (Numbers 12:3)--but his was a meekness combined with strength: inner strength to assume leadership without fanfare; outer strength to correct and challenge others even as he encouraged them. It was in this balance between gentleness and firmness that Moses most foreshadowed Christ's perfect blend of compassion and justice.

Like Moses--and like Jesus--we too should say, "I am third." We do this by honestly admitting our weaknesses and humbly accepting our talents as gifts from God--gifts bestowed on us as "earthen vessels" (2 Corinthians 4:7). In using these gifts, we are called to balance the "dove" with the "eagle" within. We are called to speak out for justice with conviction, and without compromising our principles for popularity. We are called to care for the helpless--especially those who are closest to us--and show the world how valuable it is to be on the side of the poor, the sick, the needy, and the oppressed.

As we set aside the fleeting rewards of worldly acclaim, we will discover a far greater honor: being members of the body of Christ, who need and serve each other through the unity of Christian brotherhood.

"Father, you have lovingly called me into your service. I commit myself to your care and guidance. May your name be glorified forever."

----------

God bless.

AC

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Don't you think it has something to do with the corruption brought about by the evil hellenizers?

Funny you should ask. It's accepted by all that our Saviour's Hebrew name was Jehoshua or Yehoshua. So why did the translators of the Scriptures not retain or restore it, as they did with the names of the Hebrew prophets? Instead we have the hellenized Iesous and its further latinised Iesus.

The Gentiles wanted a saviour, but not a Jewish one. The loathed the Jews. Thus, a Hellenized saviour was preferred. JESUS: really named Jehoshua. Iesous (Greek), Iesus (Latin) is adapted from the Greek name of a Greek healing goddess Ieso (laso). The discovery of the connection between Leso (laso) and Iesous, is also revealed to us by the highly respected and authoritative unabridged edition of Liddell and Scott, Greek-English Liexicon, p. 816, under "laso."

Hans Lamer in Philogische Wochenschrift, No. 25, 21 June 1930, pp 763-765. In this article the author recalls the fact of leso being the Ionic Greek goddess of healing. Hans Lamer then postulates, because of all the evidence, that "next to leso man shaped a proper masculine Iesous. This was even more welcome to the Greeks who converted to Christianity." He then continues, "if the above is true, then the name of our Lord which we commonly use goes back to a long lost form of the name of a Greek goddess of healing. But to Greeks who venerated a healing goddess Leso a saviour Lesous must have been most acceptable. The hellenisation was thus rather clever.

Just a thought. :-)

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Yes,I believe that the Old Covenant has never been revoked and that it applies to all of us,but the piece I am chewing on is just who were the "Jews",with whom God extablished the Old Covenant?

The Old Covenant was established at Mt. Sinai when Moses received God's instruction. An interesting point is that the Israelites agreed to accept the covenant before they knew what was written and before Moses went up to the mount. Jews today are a mixed batch. Mostly from the Tribe of Judah, Levi & Benjamin and then a few of the rest who migrated to the Southern Kingdom before the Assyrians carried away the Northern Kingdom. The word "Jew" as its used today generally means all Israelites.

[SoothingDave]

That is clever. Of course, for a people who "loathed" Jews, they managed to retain all of the narratives and identiy of Jesus as a Jew intact. Why do you figure that would happen?

Wouldn't someone learn very early on, even if they were attracted by the "Greek-like" name, that Jesus was in fact, and by necessity, Jewish?

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

That is clever. Of course, for a people who "loathed" Jews, they managed to retain all of the narratives and identiy of Jesus as a Jew intact. Why do you figure that would happen?

I know alot of people who believe Jesus was a jew and yet still loathe the rest of them.

Wouldn't someone learn very early on, even if they were attracted by the "Greek-like" name, that Jesus was in fact, and by necessity, Jewish?

See above.

[SoothingDave]

I know alot of people who believe Jesus was a jew and yet still loathe the rest of them.

The world is full of stupid people.

SD

[RobbyS]

Evil hellenizers like Peter and Paul and John and James etc.

[RobbyS]

Might arise from the simple fact that many Jews even in Palestine-Syria were, like Stephen, Greek-speakers. Who knows but that Our Lord himself knew some Greek since a large Greek town is known to have existed just a few miles from Nazareth.Impossible to know, of course.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Might arise from the simple fact that many Jews even in Palestine-Syria were, like Stephen, Greek-speakers. Who knows but that Our Lord himself knew some Greek since a large Greek town is known to have existed just a few miles from Nazareth.Impossible to know, of course.

Who knows?