Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Common Creationist Arguments - Pseudoscience
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/Pseudoscience.shtml ^

Posted on 03/13/2002 4:47:26 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Pseudoscience

Pseudoscience is a scientific-sounding argument which in fact has no scientific validity whatsoever. This type of argument is based on the fact that the average layperson knows so little about science that he or she is liable to judge a scientific argument solely on its style and presentation (eg- "does it sound scientific?", or "does it incorporate scientific-sounding terms?") for lack of any other method of judging its validity.

Suggested Tactics

This type of creationist argument is difficult for most people to defend against, unless they are fairly knowledgeable about science (that's why it's so popular with creationists- they may not know anything about science, but they're gambling that you don't either). In my case, I simply call upon my knowledge of certain basic scientific principles that I learned in university, but I can't instruct everyone to do this, since not everyone has a technical background.

Therefore, it's difficult for me to recommand tactics for laypeople to counteract this sort of argument, but we should keep in mind that creationist pseudoscience arguments are almost never generated out of the mind of the creationist himself. They all tend to come from the same widely distributed pool of creationist literature, which is one of the reasons that creationists all over the world tend to spout the same pseudoscience arguments. I can offer the following suggestions:

    Remember that if your opponent has no direct knowledge of the science involved, and is merely claiming truth because "I read it somewhere", this constitutes a fallacious appeal to authority. Point this out to him. One should always be able to explain the logic and science behind one's argument rather than simply making vague reference to an anonymous source.

    Since these arguments are actually second hand arguments, demand to see the original source for his claim. When you see the source, check the credentials of the author. If they aren't fraudulent, check up on the university where the author got his degree. Odds are that the degree is either honorary, or it comes from a cheap diploma mill (or worse yet, one of the many church-run schools set up expressly for the purpose of handing out degrees to creationists). If you don't have the resources to check up on universities, try looking up the Talk.Origins website at www.talkorigins.org, which maintains a list of discredited creationist "experts" and their bogus credentials.

Examples follow:

"Occam's Razor is a scientific principle which says that when faced with two theories, we should always choose the simplest theory. Evolution theory requires billions of years of chemical reactions, environmental effects, and genetic mutations. Creation theory simply says "God did it". Creation theory is obviously simpler, therefore Occam's Razor demands that we must select Creation theory on scientific grounds."

This is perhaps the single most moronic creationist idea I've ever heard (it's also been used to "prove" the existence of God, by arguing that the concept of God is much simpler than the study of science). It's a classic example of creationist pseudoscience. They learn the term "Occam's Razor" and they learn just enough about its definition to abuse it, but they make no effort whatsoever to learn its true meaning.

"Choose the simplest theory" is an oversimplification of the concept of Occam's Razor. The term is named after the 14th century philosopher and theologian William of Occam. It might strike some as strange that a scientific principle might have come from a theologian, but good scientists do not practice appeals to authority or ad hominem attacks. If an idea makes sense, it doesn't matter who it came from, and the universal acceptance of Occam's Razor is a perfect example of that philosophy.

In any case, he argued that we should never "multiply entities unnecessarily". In other words, cut out extraneous terms from an equation. He used that principle (which is really just an argument against redundancy) to show that it was impossible to deduce God's existence through reason alone, so one would have to take it purely on faith. The irony is that a theologian realized that there was no logical basis for God's existence more than 600 years ago but modern fundamentalists still can't figure it out, and actually use his name to "prove" the exact opposite of what he himself argued!

For those who cannot appreciate the simplicity of Occam's Razor in its original form, Isaac Newton restated it thusly: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances." In plain English, when faced with two scientific theories which make the same predictions, choose the simpler theory. Or, as Stephen Hawking put it: "Cut out all the features of the theory which cannot be observed." (taken from A Brief History of Time).

Like all scientific principles, Occam's Razor is accepted not because William of Occam said it, but because it makes sense. You don't need to appeal to authority or take its validity on faith. If you are faced with two competing theories between which you have no other method of deciding, is it not obvious that the theory containing extra or unverifiable terms must therefore contain redundancies? The fact that the simpler theory can accomplish the same descriptive and predictive feats while utilizing fewer terms and not relying on unverifiable or unobservable phenomena is evidence of superiority.

Consider the analogy of two mechanical devices for making widgets. Both perform exactly the same function. In repeated, exhaustive tests, both are shown to produce exactly the same quality of widget, at the same rate, with the same raw materials. Both produce the same amount of waste. Both consume the same amount of electrical power. They cost the same. In other words, their performance is identical in every measurable way. The only noticeable difference is that device #1 is much simpler than device #2. It contains fewer components and mechanisms, and its operating principle is therefore simpler. Which one would you choose?

Suppose the salesman for device #2 is quite upset that you are leaning toward device #1, and he promises to do better. The next day, he returns with a new device (we'll call it device #3) which is completely sealed in black plastic (the classic "black box"). He says it's the latest, most advanced widget-making machine in the world. You feed it electricity and raw materials, and it spits out widgets. Its performance is no different from device #1 and device #2, but it is not user servicable. You can't see inside to figure out how it works, and the salesman refuses to let you see diagrams or schematics, ostensibly because the operation of the machine is beyond both your intellectual capacity and his. The salesman argues that device #3 is actually simpler than both device #1 and #2 because it has just one component: the black box. Does this make sense to you? Again, which device would you choose?

Occam's Razor is merely a name given to a logical and intuitively obvious thought process of eliminating redundancies. It cannot be used to choose between competing theories whose predictions are vastly different, any more than the simplicity of a drill press can be used to prove that it's superior to a fighter plane. Now that we are equipped with an understanding of the reasoning behind Occam's Razor, we can list some of the reasons that it cannot be used to support either creationism or the existence of God:

  1. Occam's Razor is a method of choosing between competing scientific theories. It is irrelevant when comparing a scientific theory to the concept of God or creationism because God and creationism are not scientific theories. There are no objective terms in the concept of God. No equations. No mechanisms. No limits. No methods through which it can be used to predict the outcome of natural processes. No methods through which it can be tested, or disproven. The concept of God is actually the antithesis of a scientific theory, in that one resorts to the divine only when one's reason has either failed or been voluntarily suppressed. In the analogy above, Occam's Razor was used to evaluate a pair of machines. It couldn't be used to evaluate a machine versus, say, a piece of music.

  2. "God" is actually not a "simpler theory" than science. "God" is merely a three-letter name which is affixed to a deity whose machinations are supposedly so complex that they are beyond mortal comprehension! If God's methods are inscrutable and incomprehensible to humans (as claimed in the Bible and by all Christians), then what business does anyone have claiming that they are "simpler" than a theory which humans can understand? In the analogy above, the concept of God is very much like the "black box". The salesman may argue that it's simpler because it's a nice smooth black box instead of a set of gears and motors, but that's a childish superficiality at best, and a bald-faced lie at worst.

  3. Occam's Razor is not invoked unless the competing theories make identical predictions. It is a method of eliminating redundancies, as William of Occam first reasoned, and it only applies when the performance of the competing theories is identical. When two theories make vastly different predictions (as is the case with science and Biblical literalism), then Occam's Razor is completely irrelevant. In the analogy above, Occam's Razor was used to evaluate a pair of machines whose performance was identical. If the two machines made widgets of vastly different characteristics, Occam's Razor would be irrelevant.

The use of Occam's Razor to "prove" the existence of God or the validity of Biblical literalism is a classic example of creationist pseudoscience, because it is so emblematic of their method: take a real principle and grossly misinterpret it to mean the exact opposite of what it truly means.

"The second law of thermodynamics makes evolution impossible. It states that complexity cannot be spontaneously created, so it is impossible for natural processes to create a complex organism from a simple organism!"

This is one of the oldest, and most popular creationist pseudoscience arguments. It's been kicking around for more than a century, thanks to general public ignorance of thermodynamics. In fact, it's wrong on so many levels that it's hard to know where to start! Perhaps we should start at the beginning, with the definition of the second law of thermodynamics. According to my engineering thermodynamics textbook, the second law of thermodynamics has two basic postulates:

  1. All physical processes create entropy (microscopic disorder).

  2. The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease, ie- entropy can be created but not destroyed.

That's a lot different from "complexity cannot be spontaneously created", isn't it? Big surprise- creationists don't know anything about thermodynamics. Now that we've established their bizarre misconception about the second law of thermodynamics, we should try to understand what strange mental contortions were necessary to go from "the entropy of a closed system cannot decrease" to "complexity cannot be spontaneously created."

Upon further questioning, creationists invariably reveal the following beliefs about the second law:

  1. "The entropy of a living organism can't decrease."

  2. "The creation of complexity requires the destruction of entropy."

  3. "The second law of thermodynamics applies to spontaneous events, but not to the deliberate acts of man (or deity). That's why humans can build a complex structure but natural processes can't."

These three beliefs are all completely wrong, and they all indicate a frightening ignorance of scientific principles. Let us examine each belief separately:

  1. Actually, the entropy of a living organism can decrease, because a living organism is not a closed system. Since it is an open system, entropy can leave and enter. Entropy doesn't have to be destroyed- just moved. The concept of the closed system vs the open system is one of the most basic concepts that we teach kids in high school, and if someone thinks a living organism is a closed system, he must be staggeringly ignorant. Food, water, and energy enter and leave your body all the time, thus making it an open system. Furthermore, an entire species is even less of a closed system than an individual life form, and evolution occurs from one generation to the next, not in a single organism as it ages.

  2. Complexity is not the destruction of disorder or the creation of order. In fact, there is more disorder in complex systems, as any student of chaos theory (or government bureacracies) can tell you. There is far more entropy in a nuclear power plant than there is in an ice cube, and a pretty snowflake has much more complexity than the drop of water from whence it came.

  3. Physical laws apply all the time, to everybody, regardless of intent or intelligence. If the second law of thermodynamics truly prohibited the creation of complexity, then it wouldn't matter whether the complexity is created by "deliberate" acts or by random happenstance- it would be impossible in both cases. It is utterly unbelievable to me that creationist ignoramuses would interpret any physical law to only apply in the absence of deliberate intervention. No other physical laws of physics are interpreted to apply only in the absence of intelligent intervention- does gravity shut off when humans intervene?

This argument has been so thoroughly disproven, so many times in so many ways, that it's almost comical when people keep bringing it up. They might as well just tattoo their foreheads with the words "scientific ignoramus."

"By taking a random mixture of elements and analysing the probability of elements randomly forming into the correct combinations and orientations to make a simple amino acid, I can show that it is probabilistically impossible for the simplest amino acid to form, never mind the first living cell. Therefore, a Creator must have formed the first organisms, if not all of them."

This argument is invalid for the following reasons:

  1. Spontaneous formation of amino and fatty acids has been observed in the laboratory, by subjecting an atmosphere of hydrogen, water vapour, ammonia and methane to electrical discharges and ultraviolet radiation. This simulates primeval Earth environmental conditions, therefore it is an observed fact, and not subject to debate.

  2. Chemical reactions are not random! Elements only bond in certain combinations. Light a match in a cloud of hydrogen and oxygen, and countless trillions upon trillions of hydrogen and oxygen atoms will react to form H2O. Not H8O, and not H5O, but H2O. Purely random combinatorics are a completely invalid way of modelling chemical reactions.

  3. The first living cell did not have to form from raw materials. It would have formed from more primitive components such as RNA, which was proposed many years ago as the first self-replicating molecule. It was even experimentally found to have catalytic capabilities for adding new nucleotides to the end of the chain or removing them, leading to the term "RNA World" to describe the origins of life. But even if RNA is not the candidate we're looking for, there is certainly no need to assume that the first organic self-replicators would have been full-blown single-celled organisms. The early self-replicators (such as RNA, if it was indeed the first self-replicator) would not have left fossils.

  4. This entire attack is a red herring, because evolution theory and abiogenesis (the formation of organic self-replicators from simpler organic materials) are two completely different theories. Lumping them together is just as fallacious as lumping evolution theory with Big Bang theory. The process of evolution is heritable change in populations over multiple generations. Because the process of evolution requires multiple generations to occur, it cannot possibly happen before the first living organism! It doesn't kick in until after the first living organism already exists! Even if abiogenesis could be disproved, evolution theory would still be valid.

I should also note that this argument is generally coupled with the fallacious reasoning that "anything we don't understand is proof of divine intervention." Poorly understood phenomena are not invalidations of science- they are opportunities for scientific investigation. If we treat every gap in our understanding as proof of divine intervention, we would be no better than the tribal primitives who attributed divine intervention to everything from solar eclipses to rain. Visit the Probability page if you want to know more.

"Some older species fossils can be found on top of newer fossils. This inconsistency in your so-called 'progressionism' proves that creation theory is correct, since it means that all species were created at the same time."

More bad science, since this only occurs with animal remains that are on the surface. What happens is that severe erosion or a geological upheaval can occasionally expose strata bearing fossils, and of course, when Skippy the Dog runs away and dies near these old fossils, the "Young Earth Creationist" crowd immediately interprets this as disproof of the entire fossil record, the entire field of geology, the age of the Earth, etc.

As usual, their argument is based on ignorance of proper scientific method. This evidence would be disproof of the fossil record if it was impossible to rationalize its existence with that record. However, that is simply not the case. Geologists can examine patterns in the rock to determine whether a region is old or new, cross-cut, the result of upheaval, etc. It is the creationists who will look at a region, assume its age without using proper methodology, and then use fossil findings in that region to "disprove" geology and evolution theory.

"Evolution can explain changes in a species, but where does a whole new species come from? Speciation is the downfall of Evolution Theory!"

This is another case of creationists projecting their own pseudoscientific attitudes onto evolution theory. In this case, they are predisposed to believe that the creation of a species is a sudden, dramatic event at some fixed moment in time. One moment there's species A, and then the next moment there's species B. Much as God created Man from dust, and Eve from Adam's rib, they imagine that "evolutionists" describe evolution creating a man directly from an ape. But evolution theory does not work that way.

Speciation is not a sudden, miraculous transformation from one species to another. The way creationists envision evolution theory, a pregnant female ape went into labour one day and a human being popped out! It is a gross understatement to say that this is a misrepresentation of the truth. In reality, evolution theory merely proposes that a great many small changes eventually caused an animal population to become intersterile with its ancestors.

Of course, this would mean that there should be fossil evidence of various intermediate stages between successful species, and there is. Naturally, creationists explain all of the evidence away by pointing the finger at their favourite whipping boy: the global conspiracy of evil scientists, who work tirelessly to cover up the truth and fabricate false evidence. These people watch "X-Files" too damned much.

"I know we've observed micro-evolution, but what about macro-evolution? There is no evidence for macro-evolution!"

The creationist invention of the terms "macroevolution" and "microevolution" is a good example of how they try to mutilate the terms of science to their own advantage. Biologists do not differentiate between micro-evolution and macro-evolution, any more than mathematicians differentiate between micro-addition and macro-addition.

Their argument that there is no evidence for "macroevolution" is ridiculous because "macroevolution" is simply the result of adding a lot of "microevolution" together, and "microevolution" is, by their own admission, completely supported by various forms of evidence.

The other problem for this argument is that there actually is evidence to directly support what they describe as "macroevolution", and it's called "the fossil record". It's evidence because it is consistent with prediction. Of course, that's not enough for the creationists- they demand direct observation of massive evolutionary change in living animals, even though they know that we would have to observe living animals for millions of years in order to obtain the evidence they seek. Can you see the problem with this demand? It's pretty obvious- they are deliberately asking for a form of evidence which is impossible to obtain (millions of years of direct observation), and ignoring a form of evidence (the fossil record) which is relatively easy to obtain.

The universe operates on tiny processes, affecting tiny particles, which add up in tremendous numbers to cause large changes. If someone is going to claim that a slow, steady process cannot create large-scale changes given sufficient time, he had better provide some evidence and reasoning, rather than simply stating it as a fact and demanding impossible forms of evidence to disprove it. Are we to assume that all gradual processes eventually hit "brick walls" and stop, for mysterious and unknown reasons?

Do we question tectonic plate theory on the basis that we've observed small-scale tectonic plate movement but not large-scale tectonic plate movement? Do we insist that no one should believe in tectonic plate theory until we've been able to observe it for millions of years, so we can see long-distance movements firsthand? Do we deny the possibility of large-scale rock erosion because we've only seen small scale rock erosion? Why would a gradual process like tectonic plate movement, rock erosion, or evolution suddenly stop after an arbitrary length of time? What would make it stop? Why make this ridiculous distinction between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution?" Where is the line drawn between the two? What causes the barrier? These are questions that the creationists don't attempt to ask or answer, because like O.J. Simpson's defense lawyers, they're not serious about uncovering the truth. They just want to create "reasonable doubt" in the minds of a gullible audience.

The "microevolution vs macroevolution" argument is an example of creationists projecting their own mentality onto evolution, and then attacking the resulting strawman, ironically, for the very aspects that come from creationism. Creationism describes separate and distinct species: "each according to its kind". Creationists therefore make the same assumption: species are separate, indivisible, and disconnected. When they project this mentality onto evolution, they run into an obvious problem: there is no way for the process of evolution to "jump" over the invisible "barrier" between species. The problem is that they are assuming that this barrier exists! The terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution" are not found in biology; they are creationist inventions. Gradual changes eventually add up, and can turn one species into two, or they can cause a species to change so much that it becomes a distinct species from its predecessors.

As a thought experiment, consider human beings. It is generally assumed that any male/female pair of healthy human beings can produce children. But biological reproduction is a complex process, and it requires great genetic commonality. We know that two modern human beings can produce children, but what about a modern woman and a man from ten thousand years ago? What about a modern woman and a man from fifty thousand years ago? Is there still enough genetic commonality? Species are not delineated by distinct, clear boundaries. Rather, they are defined by intersterility and overt physical characteristics, and there is no "barrier" between species for the process of evolution to hurdle.



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: crevolist
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 521-540541-560561-580 ... 2,461-2,474 next last
To: VadeRetro
For primitive lust, a mono's no bust!

Nope, sorry...give me an intelligent human male who has learned to walk upright every time. ;)

541 posted on 03/16/2002 2:41:48 PM PST by Aracelis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 539 | View Replies]

To: VadeRetro; PatrickHenry
Don't go mental, stay placental!

Monotreme is too extreme!
=====================================

Here's another view on the subject:

"So be sweet and kind to mother,
Now and then have a chat.
Buy her candy or some flowers,
Or a brand new hat.
But maybe you had better let it go at that.

Or you may find yourself with a quite complex complex
And you may end up like Oedipus.
I'd rather marry a duck-billed platypus
Than end up like old Oedipus Rex.
"

-Tom Lehrer

542 posted on 03/16/2002 2:53:39 PM PST by longshadow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 539 | View Replies]

To: Piltdown_Woman
Piltdown_Woman or monotreme...Piltdown_Woman or monotreme... YOU decide! ;)

Such a delightful choice. My cup runneth over.

543 posted on 03/16/2002 2:59:44 PM PST by PatrickHenry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 538 | View Replies]

To: Piltdown_Woman

544 posted on 03/16/2002 3:05:20 PM PST by PatrickHenry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 538 | View Replies]

To: longshadow
And now you know the rest of the story.
545 posted on 03/16/2002 3:07:34 PM PST by VadeRetro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 542 | View Replies]

To: PatrickHenry
Awww! Plato is kinda cute! Is he housebroken?
546 posted on 03/16/2002 3:37:22 PM PST by Scully
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 544 | View Replies]

To: Scully
Plato is kinda cute! Is he housebroken?

Still working on it.

547 posted on 03/16/2002 3:45:11 PM PST by PatrickHenry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 546 | View Replies]

To: gore3000
Don't be obtuse. Of course I believe God created the universe -- but the evidence shows He did it through the process of evolution. And, as the evidence rolls in, it's pretty obvious that He set the initial parameters of the universe to give rise to life through natural processes. IOW, He is the master programmer and His creation is so perfect He hasn't needed to tweak it any. It is the folks who refuse to accept the evidence in front of them and cling to an outdated interpretation of scripture that turn the undecided off from God. They see Christians as ignorant bohunks that have no relevance in modern society. Y'all are the ones marginalizing Christianity in the minds of the masses, and I refuse to allow this to happen.
548 posted on 03/16/2002 4:43:53 PM PST by Junior
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 521 | View Replies]

To: gore3000
Interesting comments, considering the Ultimate Resource has every crevo thread and link posted in the last three years -- including threads you've posted. And I did excerpt the relevant threads and links for you. If you refuse to peruse them, that's your problem. I don't care. But when you claim that no one ever gives you references to support their contentions you will be flat-out lying, and that's a sin, regardless of whether you think you are doing it for a good cause or not.
549 posted on 03/16/2002 4:47:43 PM PST by Junior
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 520 | View Replies]

To: Junior
Don't be obtuse. Of course I believe God created the universe -- but the evidence shows He did it through the process of evolution. And, as the evidence rolls in, it's pretty obvious that He set the initial parameters of the universe to give rise to life through natural processes. IOW, He is the master programmer and His creation is so perfect He hasn't needed to tweak it any. It is the folks who refuse to accept the evidence in front of them and cling to an outdated interpretation of scripture that turn the undecided off from God. They see Christians as ignorant bohunks that have no relevance in modern society. Y'all are the ones marginalizing Christianity in the minds of the masses, and I refuse to allow this to happen.

Exactly why I find it impossible to go to church or embrace any "religion". The penalty for questioning and seeking is just too high, the voices too strident in their disapproval. If there is a God, He doesn't need the narrow-minded and intolerant to defend Him.

550 posted on 03/16/2002 4:57:41 PM PST by Aracelis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 548 | View Replies]

To: Junior
But when you claim that no one ever gives you references to support their contentions . . .

You mean Mr. "Post-it-here" has been complaining no one links him anything? Don't you know if it isn't posted in-line it just isn't real?

551 posted on 03/16/2002 5:53:52 PM PST by VadeRetro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 549 | View Replies]

To: VadeRetro
Still lurking (everyone's gone insane on this thread).
552 posted on 03/16/2002 6:14:59 PM PST by PatrickHenry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 551 | View Replies]

To: kinsman redeemer
Amen! I don't need scientific arguments to believe in God. I talked with him today. He is real. People can experience a relationship with Him if they will search for Him. Then they won't need to argue about it.
553 posted on 03/16/2002 6:28:52 PM PST by mrfixit514
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Junior
It is up to you to do the work of finding the proof to refute an opponent's theories. Just to say they are to be found in an encyclopedic work and go look for it refutes nothing. That is why I called your statement the ultimate in arrogance. It is also the ultimate in lameness. In addition, this is not a private discussion, it is a public one, with new people all the time reading these posts. It is your duty in such a discussion to put the facts before the readers, not to ask them to spend their life poring through links. The proper way to use references is to quote the parts relevant to the point being made and to then link to the whole work (when it is to an article on the net) to verify that the quote is not out of context.

Therefore, since you claim to know where the proof of macro-evolution is, post it here instead of asking all the readers to go sifting through numerous threads. I would think that you would be proud to show new readers the proof of your theory - or is the claim to having given such proof not true?

554 posted on 03/17/2002 3:22:44 AM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 549 | View Replies]

To: VadeRetro
You mean Mr. "Post-it-here" has been complaining no one links him anything? Don't you know if it isn't posted in-line it just isn't real?

As I told Junior, it is the ultimate in arrogance and the ultimate in lameness to ask readers here to wade through tons of articles to find the proof you refuse to show them. If you know where the proof is, it is a simple matter of cutting and pasting for you to give it again. Why do you refuse to do so?

555 posted on 03/17/2002 3:28:17 AM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 551 | View Replies]

To: gore3000
It is up to you to do the work of finding the proof to refute an opponent's theories.

Why? The theory of evolution pretty much fits all the evidence. It is up to anyone else coming along the pike with a brand new (or old, as in the case of creationism) theory to show that their theory fits the evidence better, has better predictive powers (prediction is the reason DARWINISTS - not CREATIONISTS - thought Piltdown Man was a hoax from the beginning; they just had to wait for better dating techniques to prove it), and can be backed up by observation (evolution has been observed in the laboratory, in the field and in the fossil record - regardless of your protestations to the contrary). Once your pet theory can do all that, then it will have a straight shot at being accepted.

Nice dodge, though. First you say that no one ever gives references when backing up the theory of evolution - and we show that isn't right. Then you say the references are garbage, and we show you that the source of the references contains some of your own work. Now you are saying we've got to go out and prove each of these bits of evidence ourselves. The bar keeps getting higher.

BTW, speaking of proving your assertions, we are still waiting for you to produce:

• Case law REQUIRING the teaching of evolution in U.S. schools (there is a lot barring the teaching of creationism, but that is no the same thing, as one could simply say the school will not teach anything along these lines and not be in violation of that ruling).

• The research paper that says DNA evidence proves whales and hippos are not related. You made this bald-faced assertion not long ago, VadeRetro called you on it by posting several references that show whales and hippos are very much related, and you clammed up.

When we make mistakes we (well most of us) admit them. Heck, I've had to apologize a half-dozen times on these threads alone (not to mention the dozens of apologies I've made on the more political threads when I misunderstood something). It has made me more diligent in my research before posting something - hence the creation of The Ultimate Resource.

BTW, The Ultimate Resource has every crevo thread and link we've done on this forum since 1999. There are plenty of creationist sites and threads on there, too. It just so happens that for every creationist argument though, there are typically several sites and threads devoted to pointing out the fallacies therein. But, have fun. You could spend hours out there researching this, that and the other and come back armed to the teeth with new, more improved, contentions and not the same worn-out, hackneyed, thrice-reputed stuff most creationist arguments are.

556 posted on 03/17/2002 4:07:22 AM PST by Junior
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 554 | View Replies]

To: Gumlegs
Here's a useful definition:

Science is a process of searching for fundamental and universal principles that govern causes and effects in the universe. The process itself is a method of building, testing, and connecting falsifiable models to describe, explain and predict a shared reality. The method includes hypothesis, repeatable experiments and observations, and new hypothesis. The prime criterion in determining the usefulness of a model is the ease with which the model correctly makes predictions or explains phenomena in the shared reality.
From:   A Brief Definition of Science

Using the above we could compare the science of genetics with the pseudo-science of evolution. Mendel showed by thorough experimentation that each individual gets one half of his genetic information from the father and half from the mother. This was in contradiction to the general belief (and Darwin's belief) that the traits of an individual were a "blend" of the traits of the parents. His theory was after his rigorous testing, tested further by numerous scientists and found to be correct. It further led to the discovery (when we finally were able to observe the nucleus of cells) of what we now call genes. In fact it predicted the presence of genes and alleles of genes in our bodies. As such, it has become the basis of the science of biology.

Evolution does not even have a generally accepted hypothesis. What we term "evolution" is a rag-tag assemblage of competing and contradicting theories such as Darwinism, Neo-Darwinism (Darwinism without environmental influences), Punk-Eek (Darwinism without gradualism), Genetic Drift (Darwinism without selective mutations) and perhaps many more of which I am not aware. Even the "proofs" of these contradictory theories are themselves contradictory. For example paleontology relies chiefly on homology to determine what species descended from another. However, when it is clearly shown that a certain species could in no way have descended from the other, they say this is due to "convergence". Therefore, their assumptions have no predictability and are therefore not scientific.

As to pop-science let me give you a quote:

It was the importance of this distinction which led me to designate this form of selection as Sexual Selection. So again, if the chief service rendered to the male by his prehensile organs is to prevent the escape of the female before the arrival of other males, or when assaulted by them, these organs will have been perfected through sexual selection, that is by the advantage acquired by certain individuals over their rivals. But in most cases of this kind it is impossible to distinguish between the effects of natural and sexual selection. Whole chapters could be filled with details on the differences between the sexes in their sensory, locomotive, and prehensile organs. As, however, these structures are not more interesting than others adapted for the ordinary purposes of life I shall pass them over almost entirely, giving only a few instances under each class.
From:   Darwin, "Descent of Man", Chapter 8.

As you can see in the above, it claims to be saying something, but it is saying nothing at all. It gives the reader the "feeling" he has learned something when nothing has really been explained or proven.

557 posted on 03/17/2002 4:28:44 AM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 531 | View Replies]

To: Junior
The theory of evolution pretty much fits all the evidence.

That is what you claim, and that is fine, I have no problem with you claiming the above. The problem I have is with your constant refusal to give proof of the above. If there is proof of macro-evolution, if you know where the proof is to be found, cough it up and stop making excuses. As the official (I guess that is an accurate statement) librarian of evolution here, I would think you would have no problem finding such proof and showing it to all us non-believers in the church of the demi-god Charles.

558 posted on 03/17/2002 4:36:11 AM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 556 | View Replies]

To: gore3000
The problem I have is with your constant refusal to give proof of the above. If there is proof of macro-evolution, if you know where the proof is to be found, cough it up and stop making excuses.

The links in #365 have plenty of evidence for macroevolution. Even if I posted, verbatim, from the 30-odd links listed, you would still claim no one presented you with any evidence. You've done so in the past. Even when we excerpt from a particular thread, as in the whale evolution arguments earlier, you don't read the actual wording there (I point out your claim that we said whales and coyotes were related). I suppose this is an effort on your part to truthfully say that you've never seen any evidence for macroevolution, but it is not from lack of effort on our parts -- it is from lack of effort on yours. Besides, I'm not going to spam this thread, or any other, with reams of verbage when the magic of the internet allows me to simply link to the references and interested parties (a group wherein you obviously do not fall) to read them or not to read them at their convenience. I am not medved. I will not force people with slow modems to wait for eternity while a thread downloads. Now, if you do not want to make the effort to link out to the threads given, that's your choice, but do not come back and say no one has ever presented evidence for macroevolution - that would be a bald-faced lie. Simply say that people have posted links to evidence for macroevolution and you have neither the time nor the inclination* to click on a particular link to see what's really out there.

*That is one reason the Italians thought to put a clock in the Leaning Tower of Pisa - If you've got the inclination, you might as well have the time.

559 posted on 03/17/2002 5:02:09 AM PST by Junior
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 558 | View Replies]

To: Junior
Even if I posted, verbatim, from the 30-odd links listed, you would still claim no one presented you with any evidence.

As I have said before, this is not a private discussion - let the others see your greatness! Stop making excuses! Give one proof Junior, just one!

560 posted on 03/17/2002 5:44:09 AM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 559 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 521-540541-560561-580 ... 2,461-2,474 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson