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Why Christians Don't Understand Non-Christians
ArGee | 1/3/01 | ArGee

Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee

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To: ArGee
Then you prefer to go against the Tanak. It clearly states that you have no Savior but G-d. If the Tanak is truly the oracle of G-d, then you can not save yourself.

But I do not believe that Jesus is God (or the Messiah); therefore, Jesus is not my savior. IMO, of course.

Perhaps I phased it wrong when I said "I prefer to go it alone." I prefer to go with God and have Him judge me worthy through my work. If that is not sufficient for Him, then I am content to have made the effort.

701 posted on 01/04/2002 11:25:57 AM PST by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: stuartcr
Exactly what about my post #690 did you not understand?
702 posted on 01/04/2002 11:28:54 AM PST by L,TOWM
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To: vrwinger
I think ArGee is merely trying to describe how the "lost" refuse to follow the simple plan of salvation, and their time is up when they stand before the Lord in judgement.

You have said it. But more, how the lost blame G-d for holding to His simple plan of salvation rather than accepting their plan as superior.

Shalom.

703 posted on 01/04/2002 11:30:38 AM PST by ArGee
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To: L,TOWM
Still can't understand, whether something is true or not, why let yourself get eaten if avoidable? I believe God wants us to live. What good is a bunch of dead believers?
704 posted on 01/04/2002 11:31:14 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: LuvItOrLeaveIt
Wrong again. If only one person can experience something, it is not reproducable nor is it falsifiable, hence it is unverifiable.

There is no exception here. The experience is unverified, ergo, it is not submitable as evidence.

Which denies a person the right to believe in what he has experienced, unless he can verify that he experienced it. Sorry, but your materialism denies the evidence of the senses.

After that, people who hear the story have a responsibility to judge it, based on what they know about the teller -- his closeness to the person who originally experienced it, his reputation for truth, etc. It may not be proof, but it is evidence.

705 posted on 01/04/2002 11:34:17 AM PST by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: L,TOWM
The part where people died when it could have been avoided.
706 posted on 01/04/2002 11:35:00 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: the_doc
The whole picture is wonderful.

And the people all said Amen

707 posted on 01/04/2002 11:35:42 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: ArGee; RobRoy; CCWoody; Jerry_M; RnMomof7; Matchett-PI; OrthodoxPresbyterian
I am not disagreeing with everything you have said. I am just offering a clarifying word of caution as to the way responsible conversion is represented in the Bible.

Repentance is not fun for an Adamic sinner, but it is integral to saving faith. For some folks, it proves to be impossibly difficult. You need to understand that about non-Christians. I certainly do. As RobRoy has intimated in another post, self-destructive behavior really is self-destructive.

And I am not even talking about turning over a new leaf to do good works. I am talking about the Satanic depravity of the unregenerate sinner. He hates God. He hates the Truth. He just doesn't ordinarily admit this to himself--i.e., he won't repent.

***

Let me also urge you to read my #696.

708 posted on 01/04/2002 11:38:34 AM PST by the_doc
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To: Kevin Curry
I understand salvation through Christ. But what of those who did not know Christ?

When I meet someone who fits that description, I will discuss the matter with him.

Most of the people who offer the "what of those" point are hiding behind someone else so they will not have to face their own choices.

G-d is not interested in what we think of how He deals with someone else. The issue is how He deals with us. My issue is how He deals with me. Your issue is how He deals with you.

And, of course, if I love someone, I will tell them of the goodness of the feast, the excellence of the wine, and the divinity of the fellowship.

Shalom.

709 posted on 01/04/2002 11:38:49 AM PST by ArGee
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To: HeadOn; All
It tackles arguments like yours at length, and is written by a former, and SERIOUS skeptic. Otherwise, just keep sitting outside that locked door, pretending you have the right to tell God what to do.

The problem is that there isn't just one kind of non-Christian. There are many people who aren't Christian that could simply be classified as "differently religious", and these kinds are typically relatively easy to convert. However, there is a small percentage of the population that has no real religious tendencies at all, which is where Christians are doing a really bad job. The reason Christians are doing a bad job is that they assume that these people are merely "differently religious", which is hardly the case.

I would classify myself as one of those people that has never had religious tendencies towards anything. Nonetheless, I was raised in a positive and very religious environment and have been thoroughly exposed to just about everything the Christian religion has to offer. It just didn't stick, and lacking any obvious intrinsic value I drifted away from it. Explaining your religion to someone who essentially doesn't have the capacity for religion is like explaining color to a blind man. No amount of willingness to understand on the part of the blind man will make your explanations of color any clearer. Saying that the blindman is willfully ignoring the concept of color is nothing more than frustration on your part.

I think it is this second type of non-Christian (the ones who have no natural religious tendencies) that you and others are arguing with on these threads and you have to adjust your arguments accordingly. All intelligent arguments have to be made from premises that both sides agree on and developed logically from there. Assuming that both parties are honest (and I believe they are in this case), then you should be able to demonstrate the logic of your position without resorting to assumptions that aren't shared.

710 posted on 01/04/2002 11:38:53 AM PST by tortoise
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To: RMrattlesnake
Christain understand non-christains becouse at one time all christains were non-christains you are not born christain. But non-christain can never understand christains becauses they never were.

But I do not understand, because G-d was able to reach me. I am not special. If G-d could reach me, He could reach anyone. The non-Christians have also been reached. I do not understand why they drew back from G-d?

Shalom.

711 posted on 01/04/2002 11:40:05 AM PST by ArGee
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To: ArGee
He taught that Abraham believed that G-d would raise Isaac from the dead so that Isaac could still be the fulfillment of the promise. Does this not agree with what you were taught?

I was taught that it was a matter of simple trust in God. But there wasn't a big Jewish community where I grew up, so my religious education is spotty and often self-taught. If you haven't already, you should catch up with a poem that explains my beliefs in more detail.

712 posted on 01/04/2002 11:41:49 AM PST by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: stuartcr
Why then, do so many think religion is necessary?

IMHO, religion is not, but a relationship with God is. Man will never cease to make things more complicated than they need to be...

713 posted on 01/04/2002 11:42:16 AM PST by dubyagee
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To: ru4liberty
It is my earnest prayer that that little light clicks on for you... soon.

Lord, G-d. I echo the prayer of ru4 for OWK. Amen!

Shalom.

714 posted on 01/04/2002 11:43:22 AM PST by ArGee
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To: Joelius
Who do you think you are, telling parables like Jesus himself?

Thank you for your feedback. Actually, Jesus didn't invent parabolic teaching. It was a rather common first century Rabbinic practice. Jesus was, obviously, very good at it.

I was not intending to tell a parable nor to share the whole Gospel. I was trying to make a point about how non-Christians appear to me.

Shalom.

715 posted on 01/04/2002 11:45:35 AM PST by ArGee
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To: Delta-Boudreaux
Thank you.

Shalom.

716 posted on 01/04/2002 11:47:07 AM PST by ArGee
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To: ArGee
But I do not understand...

You do not understand becuase you believe that what works for you is what should work for everyone. Abandon (rim-shot) that view and you might begin to understand how many people lead happy, prosperous, loving lives without a concept of God as an influence in their lives.

Your faith has obvious value to you. That is a wonderful thing because it makes you a person who has a connection to the world that you experience. Other people make connections in other ways, without the faith you have.

To insist that everyone place the value in faith the way you have is, I think, unreasonable. There are too many differences among us to think that one way to place yourself in an immense universe is the only way that works for people.
717 posted on 01/04/2002 11:48:32 AM PST by abandon
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To: ArGee
But again this is one of the important questions for the atheist. You want me to believe that God is loving and kind and wonderful. But you also say that accepting his Son's sacrifice into your heart is the only way to true happiness on the mortal coil and eternal salvation after. At this point I wonder how many million people lived and died in North America before Christianity made the trek across the Atlantic. None of these people ever heard of Christ so they couldn't possibly have accepted Him in their hearts. Now, according to the fire and brimstone guys (not sure whre you sit on this issue) they're all burning in ever lasting hell. I can't accept that God is a loving kind and wonderful if people burn in hell for the sin of being born in the wrong place at the wrong time. Show me a passage in the Bible that says there's a different measurement system for those who were never fortunate enough to hear The Word and I'm ziggy; but from everything I've seen (and as you point out in your story) there's one way only, it's through Christ and if you haven't ever heard of Christ that's your problem.

Pete Townsend put it rather succinctly:
And Tommy doesn't know what day it is.
He doesn't know who Jesus was
Or wat Praying is.
How can he be saved
From the eternal grave?

While you might be comfortable in your faith without that answer others aren't. If Tommy can't be saved, I don't want in.

718 posted on 01/04/2002 11:50:20 AM PST by discostu
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To: OWK
There is no paradox. Your reasoning is faulty. You've refused to accept God's conditions and definitions, and then you've made your own set instead.

Your assumptions are false and therefore your conclusions are in error.

719 posted on 01/04/2002 11:50:31 AM PST by savedbygrace
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To: stuartcr
Still can't understand, whether something is true or not, why let yourself get eaten if avoidable? I believe God wants us to live. What good is a bunch of dead believers?
The part where people died when it could have been avoided.

But it could not have been avoided. It was part of the plan. It was needed to convince some that his love will conquer everything, even the power(terror) of death.

You also forget that these people were waved off by their teacher, warned repeatedly of what was in store for them. But what they experienced first hand was so compelling they could not be swayed from their appointment.

Also, of personal concern to the people that went to their deaths singing Psalms of Praise, was the clear warning that if they denied what they saw, it would really offend the guy putting on the "banquet", offense to they point of where they might be asked to vacate the premises...

720 posted on 01/04/2002 11:50:36 AM PST by L,TOWM
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