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To: roving

Of course not.

This meek heretic set the date as 70 ad, despite no evidence…

You’re wise not to listen to date setters.


6 posted on 04/21/2024 5:53:47 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; grumpa
aMPU -- you are wrong, there is adequate evidence that Jesus stayed true to His promise and the generation listening to Him in 30 AD lived to see the events

The 19th century Darby philosophy of rapturism fails each time

Premillenialism is a fail - the Millenium is mentioned only once - in the book of the Apocalypse that is filled with symbolism. Its mention immediately follows Rev 19 Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

and then rev 20: 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

This is clearly figurative.

Premils misunderstand the message of Isaiah, Jeremiah and the entire New Testament by claiming the Kingdom is purely corporeal

Both Pre and post are soundly wrong

The Millenium is a spiritual reign of Christ that has been present in the community of Christ since Pentecost.

The Bible continually uses the terms Kingdom of God, Kingdom of heaven, Messianic Kingdom and Church interchangeably

Let's look at the entire passage yes

[1] And Jesus being come out of the temple, went away. And his disciples came to shew him the buildings of the temple. [2] And he answering, said to them: Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you there shall not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not be destroyed. [3] And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world? [4] And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: [5] For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.

[6] And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: [8] Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. [9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name's sake. [10] And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another.

[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. [12] And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. [13] But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. [15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

[16] Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains: [17] And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house: [18] And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat. [19] And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days. [20] But pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath.

[21] For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. [22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. [23] Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. [24] For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. [25] Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.

[26] If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. [27] For as lightning cometh out of the east, and appeareth even into the west: so shall the coming of the Son of man be. [28] Wheresoever the body shall be, there shall the eagles also be gathered together. [29] And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them. [32] And from the fig tree learn a parable: When the branch thereof is now tender, and the leaves come forth, you know that summer is nigh. [33] So you also, when you shall see all these things, know ye that it is nigh, even at the doors. [34] Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. [35] Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass.

In this Jesus answers two questions "When will the 2nd temple be destroyed"

The opening verses of the Olivet discourse set the scene for this - they left the temple and His disciples ask him about the temple

Jesus answer Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down - this was done by the Roman legions under Titus and is the final fulfilment of Micha 3:12

Therefore, because of you,
Zion shall be plowed like a field,
and Jerusalem reduced to rubble,
And the mount of the temple
to a forest ridge.
The Olivet discourse then talks about the 8 signs that Jesus said would lead to the Temple's destruction that were important for the Apostles to recognize
  1. Sign 1: false messiahs - Matt 24:4-5 -- Up to 70 AD there were several supposed messiahs in Judea who led armies against the legions. They were killed with their followers. At the time of the Jewish captivity, there were many leaders who declared themselves to be Christs (Messiahs), so that while the Romans were actually besiegin them, there were three factions within - and Josephus mentions them as "Imposters and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly""

  2. Sign 2: Wars You will hear of wars and rumors of wars Matt 24:6 - there was civil war in Rome itself

  3. Sign 3: famines - during the war the Jews in Jerusalem underwent a severe famine - St. Paul wrote about it in his letter to the Corinthians (2 Cor 8)

  4. Sign 4: earthquakes erupted frequently - the city of Colossae was destroyed in an earthquake in the 50s. And Pompeii had one in 63 AD (the same Pompeii that was destroyed by volcano in 79 AD)

  5. sign 5: persecution - Matthew 24:9 - Nero's persecution killed Peter and Paul

  6. Sign 6: Apostasy - Matthew 24:10-12 - this is reflected in Revelations 2 about the Nicolaitians

  7. Sign 7 - the gospel worldwide. What did Paul say in Rom 1:8? First, I give thanks[f] to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world and in Col 1:5-6 First, I give thanks[f] to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world in Paul's mind there was no doubt that the gospel had gone out into the whole world Clement wrote in 73 AD that Peter and Paul had been martyred, but not before they "taught righteousness to the whole world, and they came to the extreme limit of the west" -- the word used for "world" is oikoumene - which specifically means the civilized world i.e. the Roman Empire - the Olivet discourse does not use the world "Kosmos" that designates the entire earth.

    Kosmos in Matt 24:21 From the beginning of the world (kosmos) until now"
    Matthew 24:14
    This gospel of the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come
    Yet, Paul states that in his lifetime, the Faith of those in the Church in Rome First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. - Romans 1:8

    And in Colossians 1:5-6 Paul wrote

    5 the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6 that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.
    There was no doubt in Paul's mind that the gospel had gone out into the whole world

    This is also what the early Christians wrote about:

    • Clement of Rome in 95 AD wrote that Peter and Paul had been martyred but not before they"taught righteousness to the WHOLE world, and they came to the extreme limit of the west"

      Since both Peter and Paul were martyred before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, well

    • Justin Martyr in 120 AD wrote that from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the world the word of God

    • Eusebius even connected this to Jerusalem's destruction writing that the teaching of the new covenant was borne to all the nations and then the Romans besieged Jerusalem and destroyed it and the Temple

    the word used for "world" is oikoumene - which specifically means the civilized world i.e. the Roman Empire - the Olivet discourse does not use the world "Kosmos" that designates the entire earth.

    Kosmos in Matt 24:21 From the beginning of the world (kosmos) until now"

  8. Sign 8: Daniel's desolating sacrilege. Matt 24:15-19. Note that the Sanhedrin believed that this had been fulfilled in 167 BC, but that did not meet Daniel's prophecy of 3.5 years

    Jesus then mentions in 24:21 the Great Tribulation - which is for the Jesus-movement Jews.

    There has never been, nor will there ever be anything rivaling it. The Church was close to being smothered in its cradle if Nero continued and the Jerusalem Christians had not escaped to Pella - this was a tiny community, primarily Jewish and was attacked by both the Roman authorities AND the Jewish authorities. That WAS the great tribulation

THEN, in Matt 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved - This is apocalyptic language exactly referring to Isaiah 13:10-13 The stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light... I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place" - Jesus is foretelling the overthrow of nero and the Sanhedrin. He draws a parallel between the shaking of Babylon and the shaking of Jerusalem (and that's the basis of John's vision in the book of revelations)

This is also reflected in Haggai 2:6-7 Thus says that Lord of hosts: Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land; and I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come in, and I will fill this house with splendor, says the Lord of hosts

This splendor is Christ and the house is the Church. The Sanhedrin was uprooted forever, never to be validly re-established again.

==================
I'm finally answering your question, apologies for the background lenght
=============================

Now to Matt 24:30-31 Then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds on heaven with power and great glory; and He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other -- and on reading this with Daniel we have

================

Mara Bar Searpion, a pagan Syrian Gentile who wrote a letter to hsi son around 73 AD wrote "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged"

Only God could make the type of prediction that Jesus made and have it come true. Consider how while Jerusalem was still standing,Jesus foretold what would befall it from the hand of hte empire. At that time there were no armies around Jerusalem encompassing and besieging it for the siege began three decades after His death

Finally the fig tree - "you know that He is near, at the very gates." - the generation of the fig tree was the people who lived to see the destruction in 70 AD

That is why the Gospel according to john does not include the Olivet discourse because revelations was written before 67 AD but the gospel according to john was written after 70 AD

45 posted on 04/22/2024 10:16:16 PM PDT by Cronos (I identify as an ambulance, my pronounces are wee/woo)
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