And that ... is blatantly wrong.
https://pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/prophecy-in-deuteronomy
Nice website. I got that bookmarked now!
Why do these guys have to lie about it?
It’s one thing to not believe in it, fine.
But they take it a step further and lie about it.
Satan really hates the idea of the Rapture because his game is up once it happens.
Like I said, those who ascribe to this view are welcome to it. Believe in the pre-trib rapture. Don't believe in the pre-trib rapture. I care not. The whole point of my post was to point out that there is more than one view on this. Is that OK with you? You said you didn't want to debate (and neither do I), so let's leave it at that.
Echoing what fidelis wrote As soon as he started quoting small snippets of St. Ephrem out of context and expanding the interpretation of it, I could tell where this was going. The speaker was simply starting out with his erroneous premise and trying to shoe-in validation from isolated quotes.
Let's look at what Ephream the Syrian actually wrote
The Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem does not support a Pre-tribulation rapture============================================================================================The English and Latin texts of the first passages that are used by you to try to support the pre-tribulation rapture are
The Latin verb for "taken" in Rhodes' version are from teh Latin verb adsumo and most often means to "take for ne's self" or "take in addition to ones' self", or "take beside one's self".
Rhoades translation Actual Translation Latin Why therefore do we not reject every car of earthly actions and prepare outselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? (section 2) Why therefore do we not thrust from us all anxiety on account of earthly impulses, and prepare ourselves for a meeting with the Lord Christ, so that he might draw us out from confusion, which overwhelms all mankind? Quid ergo non proicimus a nobis omnem actuum terrenorum sollicitudinem et nosmet ipsos praeparamus in occursum domini Christi, ut nos eruat a confusione, quae uniursum obruet mundum? For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to thw Lord les they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins Truly all the holy and elect of God, before the tribulation that is about to come, are gathered and received to the Lord, lest at any time they see the confusion that will overwhelm all mankind in account of our sins Omnes enim sancti et electi Dei ante tribulationem, quae uentura est, colliguntur et ad Dominum adsumuntur, ne quando uideant confusionem, quae uniuersum propter peccata nostra obruet mundum Though the verb can be used where physical movement takes place if implied in the context, this is not a meaning inclusive in the word itself. In fact, it is most often to take without any actual literal movement being stressed at all, such as joining another to one's self in a relationship of position.
So the passage actually reads is
for all the saints and the elect of God are gathered and joined to the Lord before the tribulation that is to come, lest at any time they experience the confusion that will overwhelm the whole world because of our sins.reading into these a pre-tribulation rapture is false especially when the rest of the text is examined, which is usually ignored or neglected by most pre-tribulation rapture proponents - and it is important to tell you two what the passages do NOT say
########################################################
What the passages do and do NOT say
The most important thing to notice os that the focus of deliverance is not on the tribulation itself. Christians are instead being rescued from the "confusion" that comes with that tribulation
The passages do NOT say that there is a physical gathering that requires movement - nor is it even implied. There is no mention of leaving anywhere or going to any place
the Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem does NOT say we are being taken from the world or going to heaven. It simply emphasizes being gathered together to the Lord to be rescued from the confusion in a contrast to those who are being deceived and being gathered together to the AntiChrist
You can see this most clearly in section 5 of Pseudo-Ephraem
Then that worthless and abominable dragon shall appear, he, whom Moses named in Deuteronomy, saying: Dan is a young lion, reclining and leaping from Basan..."Basan" certainly is interpreted "confussion". He shall rise up from the confusion of his iniquity. The one who gathers together to himself a partridge the childrn of confusion, also shall call them, whom he has not brought forth, just as Jeremiah the prophet says. Also in the last day they shall relinquish him just as confused(section 5)This confusion is the same as found in 2 Thess 2:8-12
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
And Matt 24:24 "they shall decieve the very elect"
########################
Taking it from the Greek makes it even clearer -- "The elect are gathered together before the tribulation so that they might not know the confusion and the great tribulation which is coming upon the unrighteous world"
Absolutely nothing in the original Greek can be translated as "taken" and it does not say ANYTHING about being raptured.
Pseudo Ephraem says nothing that would support a pre-tribulation rapture - in contrast it says that the elect will not be deceived by the confusion and the great tribulation coming upon unbelievers
The writer indicates that Christians will be here during the tribulation "And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord" - implying that the harvesting of Christians will take place at the same time as the end of the world
Sections 9 to 10 again reject any kind of a pre-tribulation rapture
It is amazing to me that anybody can attempt to use this document to support a pre-tribulation rapture belief when it actually supports a post-tribulation resurrection position
Also, it is clear that he has never read Irenaeus
Irenaeus at no point supported pre-tribulation rapture. Not a single writing about thatIreneaus thought that there would be a 1000 year reign after the 2nd coming - and this was to have happened in 1000 AD.
alert - it didn't happen
even if you say 2000 AD - it didn't happen
Ireneus in Adv. Haereses, V, 33
he days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, "I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me." In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees, and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.
Absolutely NOTHING about a rapture, nothing about pre-tribulation rapture