Posted on 03/04/2024 4:04:09 PM PST by grumpa
And this is an argument? Tell me what counterfeits are not constructed from the genuine article?
Instead, let us look at 4 Biblical Proofs for Prayers to Saints and for the Dead. (https://www.ncregister.com/blog/4-biblical-proofs-for-prayers-to-saints-and-for-the-dead) Which desperate extrapolative attempts which RCs must resort to are themselves an argument against the very invention that they can only wish was in Scripture, that of prayer to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH).
) Praying to Saints (i.e., Asking Them to Intercede): Rich Man and Lazarus
Zero "proof," let alone any support despite egregious extrapolation. No one here is on earth praying to someone in Heaven to intercede for them to God. Rather, both are in the same realm, as is the case with all two-way communication btwn created beings and those of Heaven, except God, and the rich man is asking Abraham to send Laz with water. And Abraham is not in Heaven anyway, yet.
2) Praying to Saints: Saul Petitions the Prophet Samuel After the Latter’s Death
Ditto. No one here is on earth praying to someone in Heaven to intercede for them to God. Rather, Samuel - if indeed it is him - is summoned into the earth realm by a witch, acting contrary to the word of God, and which is in order to get advice. The fact that Saul is so desperate that he must resort to a witch to engage in what is forbidden, and PTCBIH are so desperate that they must resort to this for support (and forget about "proof") leaves them both desperate in teaching contrary to the word of God!
The Apostle Paul Prayed for the Dead 2 Timothy 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me
Desperation in deception #3. Paul is simply not praying to any created being in Heaven, and what he does express is more that of a desire, for Paul is not reticent to tell us when he prays, while it can only be presumed that Onesiphorus had died. Nor is this even support for RC Purgatory.
Jesus and Peter Simultaneously Prayed to Saints and for the Dead Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who died. Peter prayed to her when he said “Tabitha, rise.” See Acts 9:36-41.Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who died. Peter prayed to her when he said “Tabitha, rise.” See Acts 9:36-41. She was dead, and he was addressing her. There is no impenetrable wall between heaven and earth. This is not only praying to the dead, but for the dead, since the passage says that Peter “prayed” before addressing Tabitha first person. And he was praying for her to come back to life.
Which last ditch effort also fails, for once again, there simply is no praying to anyone in Heaven to intercede for them to God, or even to help the supplicant, for instead, as every believer did in prayers in Scripture, Peter prayed to God, and then commanded her to arise.
And no such desperation should be necessary for such a common Catholic practice, seeing there have always been plenty of created beings to pray to, and needful opportunities to do so or to give thanks to such, Yet there are ZERO examples of PTCBIH in Scripture, and despite there being over 200 prayers by believers in the Bible.
Yet Catholicism teaches their tradition (of men) of prayer to created beings in Heaven despite,
"Prayer to Saints" is not restricted to just them, but angels as well, and basically boils down to (based on what we do read in the Bible),
In context, this as regards prayer by those on earth to those in Heaven, versus both being in the same realm including via a vision.
Step one, study the OT prophets in detail.
Step two, understand new dispensationalism.
This article skips these first two steps.
You’re wrong.
Read the book of Revelations and the book of Maccabees.
Read Church history.
Then convert.
well, I don’t quite agree with the article.
Present day Jews are genetically descended from the pre-70 AD population. The same markers are also found amongst other peoples as well as Judeans have intermarried with other peoples through the millenia.
God’s chosen people expanded from 1 man (Abraham), to his family, to his clan, to his tribe, to his nation, to all nations.
So, the tree is Abrahams genetic children to which we have all been grafted. Jesus fulfilled and did not cancel the old covenant.
The modern country of Israel is not a “fulfilment of prophecy” - as the regathering of his people was fulfilled at the end of the Babylonian exile. Jews have never NOT lived in what is once again Israel - in 70 AD it was the devastation of Jerusalem, while other Jewish communities in Israel remained. In 132 AD after the 3rd Jewish-Roman war, most Judeans were exiled, but not all. There are Jews reported in Roman and later Byzantine chronicles. And, when the Arabs invaded in 637, they opened the gates of Jerusalem to Jews.
God Jesus saves us through grace. By His grace, Mary was created without the stain of original sin and by His grace alone, Mary was kept, by God, to be sinless.
Not through any action of hers beyond accepting God’s will
Which has the same fallacious weight as your other charges:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3846989/posts?page=68#68 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3846989/posts?page=67#67 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3868037/posts?page=23#23 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3867413/posts?page=78#78 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3870363/posts?page=50#50 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3870363/posts?page=49#49 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3870363/posts?page=48#48 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3870363/posts?page=47#47 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3870363/posts?page=60#60 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3872796/posts?page=46#46 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3873326/posts?page=97#97 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3873326/posts?page=93#93 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3873326/posts?page=92#92 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3872796/posts?page=506#506 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3877970/posts?page=138#138 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4011052/posts?page=89#89 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4011052/posts?page=88#88 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4011052/posts?page=87#87 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4011052/posts?page=86#86 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4044225/posts?page=29#29 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4064985/posts?page=35#35 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4074989/posts?page=22#22 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4074989/posts?page=24#24 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4099941/posts?page=70#70 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4102860/posts?page=142#142 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4074989/posts?page=24#24 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4099941/posts?page=70#70
and https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4162325/posts?page=95#95 and add
https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4119008/posts?page=51#51 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4138561/posts?page=28#28 https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4138561/posts?page=31#31
0NLY JESUS is sinless
There are points I agree with you on here.
Unfortunately traveling today.
Best.
“ if being “out of God’s will” is not referring to salvation then it is a meaningless platitude.”
Nonsense! Are you always in God’s will? I am not. But I do not lose my salvation when I deviate.
Sure I am. God is imminent as well as transcendent. But what does it even mean? As long as we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit he is with us.
LOL
LOL 2x
Yeah!
The church is makin’ really good history these days!
And, apparently, without a scintilla of proof of any of these assertions, too.
Well said, Brother.
No need to cancel a covenant that had already been broken.
31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[a] them,[b]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
Good points.
It seems that very often, people have too much confidence in their personal views on spiritual matters, or any other matter. They don’t consider how objective, or not, those views are. Then they latch on to them, and don’t seek out or hear the views of others, or to have their views developed or corrected.
In spiritual matters, especially, people should be “swift to hear, slow to speak,” (James 1:19).
I’ve been letting the Lord lead me for a long time on all these questions about the Old Covenant and Israel, etc. There is so much to them, so much to consider, and if we don’t have definite answers, we shouldn’t be in a rush to declare just what we think, our opinion, as “the truth”.
For myself, I’ve not ever been able to put Israel in the same place as other nations. And I often come back to what Paul wrote in Romans 11:25:
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
While Christ did break down the wall of separation, and make a new man, that work was not finished in some senses — similar to how Jesus’ death on the cross is a finished work, and yet there was still and still is much Kingdom work to do. Romans 11:25 supports that.
Then, we can and should ask, how were the Old Testament saints saved?
We see that they had faith. We’re often inspired by their faith.
Then, too, 2,000 years have transpired. That doesn’t mean truth changes, but God does new things continually, and He is accomplishing things continually.
We often say, too, that the New Testament is the Old revealed, and the Old is the New concealed.
I take comfort ultimately in that I’m not God, He knows what He’s doing, I need to remember I’m just a creature, and He knows those who are His.
You can consider, too, what it took for Paul and Peter, for example, to change their views: the divine intervention of God. Paul needed to be knocked off his horse and have Jesus appear to him. Peter needed a vision to accept Gentile believers.
It would be hard for me to not see the reestablishment of Israel as part of God’s divine plan.
And His ways and thoughts are higher than ours, as it says in Isaiah. It’s not even easy to try to put these issues into words.
It seems that, until the fullness of the Gentiles come in, and God completes all His work of reconciling people to Himself, that all these questions won’t be reconciled either. Gentile believers really should consider, too, that the Gospel, under present conditions, is likely harder for faithful Jewish people to accept. And again, God shows us faithful believers in the Old Testament.
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