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Who Is Israel and the Demise of Dispensationalism
Prophecy Questions Blog ^ | February 1, 2024 | Charles S. Meek

Posted on 03/04/2024 4:04:09 PM PST by grumpa

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See also my article “Prophecy Questions for Dispensationalists”:

https://prophecyquestions.com/prophecy-questions-specifically-for-dispensationalists/

1 posted on 03/04/2024 4:04:09 PM PST by grumpa
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To: grumpa

How are we going to get people to support Armageddon if they read what you wrote?


2 posted on 03/04/2024 4:09:29 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (What is left around which to circle the wagons?)
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To: grumpa

grumpa back as the accuser of the brethren!


3 posted on 03/04/2024 4:13:46 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: grumpa
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal. 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.” 9 And David says: May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever. 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
4 posted on 03/04/2024 4:20:00 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: grumpa

Not that this will change your mind, but allow me to offer a Pascal’s Wager alternative.

There are two possibilities: one is that present-day Israel is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, and the other is that it is simply a political unit that happens to consist mostly of Jews.

This leaves four options.

1) Israel is a political unit, and I don’t think of it as the fulfillment of prophecy. I happen to be correct, and not out of God’s will.

2) Israel is the fulfillment of prophecy, and I think of it that way. I happen to be correct, and not out of God’s will.

3) Israel is a political unit, and I think of it as the fulfillment of prophecy. I happen to be incorrect. I am not necessarily out of God’s will, since I still think of the church as being grafted to the vine, and by supporting a political unit of Jews I am not blaspheming God’s people.

4) Israel is the fulfillment of prophecy, and I think of it as a political unit. I happen to be incorrect. I also am outside of God’s will, since I do not support the fulfillment of His prophecy, and I am not standing with those who are the apple of His eye.

Of the four above options, #4 has the greatest risk for the least reward, while #3 has the least risk for the greatest reward. I am better off assuming Israel is the establishment of God’s chosen people in the fulfillment of prophecy, even if I were to find out as I enter the pearly gates that I was incorrect, since I would still be able to enter.


5 posted on 03/04/2024 4:24:03 PM PST by chajin ("There is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12)
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To: grumpa

Not a fan of Hal Lindsey I see …


6 posted on 03/04/2024 4:26:38 PM PST by 11th_VA (Celebrate Climate Change !!!)
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To: chajin

Excellent repurpose of Pascal’s Wager!


7 posted on 03/04/2024 4:40:59 PM PST by Tell It Right (1st Thessalonians 5:21 -- Put everything to the test, hold fast to that which is true.)
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To: chajin

You are saying that faith in Christ is not enough for salvation. One must have faith in Christ PLUS support Israel.


8 posted on 03/04/2024 4:43:34 PM PST by Angelino97
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To: chajin

Salvation is thru YESHUA alone.


9 posted on 03/04/2024 4:51:18 PM PST by cowboyusa (YESHUA IS KING OF AMERICA! DEATH TO MARXISM AND GFLOBALISM ! AMERICA, COWBOY UP!)
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To: Angelino97

Yes, thru YESHUA alone. Not a Preist or Pope or Mary. This is more of a rewards issue.


10 posted on 03/04/2024 4:52:56 PM PST by cowboyusa (YESHUA IS KING OF AMERICA! DEATH TO MARXISM AND GFLOBALISM ! AMERICA, COWBOY UP!)
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To: grumpa

Covenantal theology is the foundation for a whole lot antisemitism


11 posted on 03/04/2024 5:08:21 PM PST by Fai Mao (Starve the Beast and steal its food.)
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To: cowboyusa

Yes, I bring it up because Protestants are always brow-beating Catholics for the Eucharist or Sacrament of Penance. “You don’t need that for salvation!” Then these Dispensationalists talk as if “But you need to support Israel.”

Although I don’t know why you bring up the pope. We Catholics keep telling you Prots, we don’t worship the pope or Mary.


12 posted on 03/04/2024 5:10:04 PM PST by Angelino97
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To: Angelino97

Do you belive Mary is sinless, and that she was born imaculate?


13 posted on 03/04/2024 5:17:42 PM PST by cowboyusa (YESHUA IS KING OF AMERICA! DEATH TO MARXISM AND GFLOBALISM ! AMERICA, COWBOY UP!)
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To: chajin; Angelino97; cowboyusa

Chajin said nothing about salvation being dependent on one’s view of the Jew’s or modern day Israel. Both of you are putting up an unnecessary straw man!

Both those who believe in a restored Israel and those who believe that the Church has replaced Israel have a place in the Church. However, I have sat through classes on Revelations being taught by those with the replacement view. They have to resort to a lot of “spiritualized” interpretations during the description of John being transported to Heaven during the end times.

Dispensationalism is not dead.

I suggest that people spend some time following Amir Tsafarti. He is a Christian Jew who lives in Israel.

https://t.me/s/beholdisraelchannel

His web page posts pictures and videos about what is going on in present day Israel. He posted several videos of Israeli forces occupying Hamas sites and singing about looking forward to the coming of the Messiah.


14 posted on 03/04/2024 5:19:31 PM PST by the_Watchman
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To: the_Watchman

I’m a Messianic Jew, thank you for clarifying what was said.


15 posted on 03/04/2024 5:22:21 PM PST by cowboyusa (YESHUA IS KING OF AMERICA! DEATH TO MARXISM AND GFLOBALISM ! AMERICA, COWBOY UP!)
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To: cowboyusa

Yes. Early church fathers, far wiser than I, said so.


16 posted on 03/04/2024 5:31:38 PM PST by Angelino97
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To: Angelino97

The Bible says no such thing.


17 posted on 03/04/2024 5:33:47 PM PST by cowboyusa (YESHUA IS KING OF AMERICA! DEATH TO MARXISM AND GFLOBALISM ! AMERICA, COWBOY UP!)
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To: Angelino97

—> Then these Dispensationalists talk as if “But you need to support Israel.”

I do not know of any dispensationalist who claims supporting Israel is necessary for salvation.


18 posted on 03/04/2024 5:56:18 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: grumpa
Excellent post-mortem on a dead, decaying, and putrefying cancer upon God's people.

As Gary North pointed out, people know which side their bread is buttered on. They have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo that maintains their income. Why rock the boat that's keeping your family afloat?

For example, Dallas Theological Seminary, the flagship of the flagging dispensational subculture, declared its own irrelevance to real-world issues in 1973. The de-facto deity of the USA -- what five black-robed miscreants think or feel on a given day -- enforced unrestricted human sacrifice on all fifty states.

And DTS was silent.

Even though Roe v. Wade happened in their own back yard, under their noses -- THEY HAD NOTHING TO SAY.

Guys who preach optimism and Christian responsibility find themselves without a pulpit.(1) Denied access to the Wheaton Mafia, the mainstream evangelical press. Which DTS does train competent hacks to write for.

If you truly intend to study, teach, and preach the Kingdom of God, much of your education will be self-education. Reading everything you can get your hands on from the new kids on the block. Trying the new paradigms out.(2)

The linked document was my lifeline during my own decade-long session of rewiring my mind along Kingdom-honoring lines. It lived in the pocket of my suitcoat and got re-read many times. Gary North basically argued that you can't get training in the new paradigm (Jesus is Lord over the vast universe AROUND us, as well as the half-vast "universe" inside us) from folks who've bet the farm on the old way of thinking.

~~~

(1) The closest Christian Reconstructionist church I'm aware of is about 100 miles from where I sit. The founding pastor planted this new church in the middle of the Bible Belt, rather than trying to work with an existing church. He explained, "It's easier to give birth than it is to raise the dead."

(2) My favorite denomination, Every Nation International, likes to plant churches on college campuses. One of their highly-trained and highly-motivated campus missionaries tried to take the Gospel of the Kingdom to a notable Baptist university -- but gave up after banging her head against the wall there for months. The kids just could not grasp the idea of a relevant public Christian faith -- and kept wanting to scoot off and have some more "personal devotions" whenever a challenging real-world question arose.

Click HERE for that essay on self-education.

19 posted on 03/04/2024 6:03:08 PM PST by TomEd (Her şey hazır! Buyrun, şölene!)
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To: the_Watchman
The church has replaced ethnic Israel as God's focus in the current dispensation. An individual Jew as much as a Chinese, Ugandan, Hungarian, or Chilean must accept the free offer of salvation through Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross.

However, the statement that the current Jewish people are not the descendants of the Biblical Jewish people is untrue. There are plenty of historical documents that show a continuity of the Jewish people following the destruction of the Second Temple. Some claim the term, Jew, is a relatively recent invention. Yet among the first English translations of the Bible, such as the Geneva Bible (Puritan) and the Douay Rheims Bible (Catholic), both of which date to the late 16th Century, you will find that term used to describe the Jewish people. DNA evidence indicates that while the exiles did intermarry with other Mediterranean peoples, notably Greeks and Italians, the closest paternal DNA for Ashkenazi (Eastern and Central European) Jews are other Jewish groups like the Sephardim. After other Jews, the next closest genetic matches are Palestinians, Lebanese, and other people who have lived in the Holy Land for many centuries.

You must ask yourself why God has chosen to preserve national Israel. It is rather hard to find Galatians, Visigoths, Picts, Scythians, Hittites, and other nations contemporary with Biblical Israel. We have the statement of the Apostle Paul in Romans 11:25-26 (NKJV) "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved." While the church is God's primary vehicle since Pentecost, He has not abandoned His original people. Before the end of the world, the Jewish people will collectively recognize Jesus as their Savior.

20 posted on 03/04/2024 6:27:45 PM PST by Wallace T. ( )
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