To: Philsworld
Over the past 1500 years, why didn’t the Catholic Church or Protestant Reformers teach the PTR, if it’s such a clear biblical message as you claim it is?
Because Rome was more interested in heresy hunting, torture and murder for fun and profit. They placed their religious monarchy and traditions ABOVE God's Word. Their seminaries teach Catholicism. There was a time when Bible reading was discouraged, translation to a common tongue worthy of death. In that atmosphere, few will read, and even fewer will BELIEVE what was written - especially if it disagrees with the state religion. The few Reformers who did speak out usually did not survive very long. But when the Word was translated to the common languages, and printing allowed its distribution, note how that coincided with Revelation returning.
When Paul's teaching was rediscovered, it was often at odds, sometimes profoundly, with the state religion. Justification by faith, the place and role of God's Word, the Body of Christ - long lost to the Church, exposed how far Rome had fallen. Heck, they even have a priesthood!
In this present dispensation of Grace, there is only one mediator between God and Man - Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5 - see also Hebrews 8, 9 & 12) The Body of Christ is about relationship, not religion. Believers ARE the Temple of God (consider that prayerfully). (1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:15-20, 2 Corinthians 6:11-18)
An earthly priesthood was recognized and ordained by God and confined to the nation of Israel (Exodus 19:6), and to the tribe of Levi (Aaron's sons). (Exodus 29:9) When Israel put themselves under the Law they had a conditional promise, "If ye shall obey my voice and keep my covenant then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine, and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and an holy nation." (Exodus 19:5-6). They could not perform, and the promise is delayed until the End Times. Note Isaiah 61, quoted by Jesus in Luke 4:18-20. Jesus stops mid-verse for seemingly no reason. The rest of the passage had, and still has, a future fulfillment, especially - Isaiah 61:6 (KJV) "But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves."
The priesthood ended spiritually with the death and resurrection of Jesus, and physically with the destruction of Jerusalem. The Kingdom of Heaven (and King) was rejected by Israel (Acts 28:23-29), and Paul revealed the Mystery of the Church, officially starting the current time of Grace.
Consider the language of 1 Peter 2:1-12, and especially to whom the letter was addressed (also Peter's calling - Galatians 2:8). Is the Body of Christ ever referred to as a priesthood, or a nation in the letters written specifically TO the Church? The Jewish Believers addressed by Peter were priests in the spiritual sense, but not a Holy Nation, at least not yet. And in no way does this imply any earthly priesthood applies to the present age. To do so introduces much error and confusion (likely deliberately) into the Body of Christ. Before we leave 1 Peter 2, note the references to OT prophecies concerning Israel in the End Times.
Jesus did not set aside hundreds of years of laws and religious practices to create yet another laborious religious system for His Body. (Galatians 2 & 3) God wanted family and fellowship, not rudiments/elements (stoicheia), or the outward acts of religion that Paul confronts in (Galatians 4:3, 9) and (Colossians 2:8, 20).
The members of the Body of Christ are described as CHILDREN of God by faith in Christ Jesus. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for all are ONE in Christ Jesus, Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:6-29) Note that the Law, including the priesthood, came after Abraham, who was a friend of God because he trusted Him. Melchizedek was a type of Jesus - a true Eternal High Priest. (Genesis 14:18-20, Hebrews 7) He received tithes from Abram (later Abraham) and blessed Abram. Believers are CHILDREN of God because we believe in Jesus. We worship him not according to religious ceremony or ritual, instead we must worship Him spiritually, yes—in a truly spiritual manner too. (John 4:24 - Figure Hendiadys)
Believers are made alive in Christ, and seated in Heavenly places. (Ephesians 2) There is now no condemnation because Believers are set free from the Law of sin and death, are joint heirs with Jesus, and children of God (Romans 8). What sacrifice could a priest even offer that would surpass what Jesus has already done? What ceremony or ritual could a priest perform that would make you any closer to God than having Him DWELL IN YOU?
God's plan is clear for leadership in His Church. It is not by man's choice, or an institutional decision. Jesus is the HEAD of His Body, and only HEAD. (Ephesians 1 & 5, Colossians 1, and many others) God places everyone in the Body where He pleases. (1 Corinthians 12:12-31) And He provides folks to help the Body mature.
And if you look at Rome, and sadly many Protestant churches as well, they look nothing like what Paul describes. They are full of rituals and ceremonies, religious hooey, while neglecting the most important part - teaching the Living Word! And allowing the Spirit to guide their worship and lives.
Why did theologian Samuel Prideaux Tregelles write the following about the vision of Margaret Macdonald (which he personally witnessed in Edward Irving’s church) on the PTR, and then the PTR theory in general, if it was such a clear biblical message, as you claim?
Some people BELIEVE, others don't. Sometimes it takes a good theologian to help you misunderstand. Jesus promised that satan comes IMMEDIATELY to steal the Word when it is sown. My experience with theologians - especially college professors, is they have an abundance of PRIDE. They were taught a certain way, and by God, that's the way it is. So error is passed from generation to generation. You receive God's Word like a little child. You believe and receive. The Holy Spirit confirms the Word in your spirit. And finally, HIS SHEEP, hear His voice.
Tregelles was likely a sincere man. Probably not familiar with gifts of the Spirit - as for many years we have been told by religion (NOT God's Word) that they ended with the death of the original apostles. Note he immediately dismisses it as a false prophesy - often done by those who do not believe or understand spiritual gifts - and btw you will not experience that which you dismiss.
Based on his own testimony, it does not sound like he even bothered to seek the Truth in the Word. He dismisses it without inquiry. Such is the folly of pride. Note his own words - "I am not aware..." does that sound like someone who like a Berean, studied the Word, or sought out the Holy Spirit's leading on this? No, he relied on his own intellect and dismissed it.
I'm honestly not sure why you keep emphasizing "secret" like that is some kind of gotcha word. There is NOTHING secret about the Blessed Hope. Its been in the Word from the very beginning. Just because theologians or religious folks ignored it, or failed to understand, does not make it any less TRUE. You have to purposely misread Thessalonians to miss it. But then, that is not the only place it is mentioned.
IF THEN you have been raised with Christ [to a new life, thus sharing His resurrection from the dead], aim at and seek the [rich, eternal treasures] that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. [Ps. 110:1.] 2 And set your minds and keep them set on what is above (the higher things), not on the things that are on the earth. 3 For [as far as this world is concerned] you have died, and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, Who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in [the splendor of His] glory.
The Amplified Bible (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1987), Col 3:1–4.
That was written TO THE CHURCH, not Israel or the Nations (Gentiles). We APPEAR WITH HIM. This is NOT the 2nd Coming when returns to the Earth. Note the conditional phrase at the start of that passage. It would take a theologian to misunderstand something so simple.
I find his conclusion almost humorous. He's basically saying since I don't believe it, its not true. Maybe a hint of arrogance? Meekness is a virtue. Meekness is having a teachable spirit. Its that necessary trait that KNOWS we have an infallible God working through fallible people. God's Word is alive. But it has been copied, translated, by flawed men. Most of the early English translations came from a very bad latin translation heavily biased by Jewish tradition. Some of the best translations are now coming out as knowledge, technology and available works in ancient languages are more widely available than ever. I've been studying Genesis, and its mind-blowing how a biased translation can cause so much harm.
The Bible is God's Truth, but it MUST be spiritually discerned. And rightly divided, as to whom it was written, when, why. Then, of course there is context to consider. And finally, for the religious reader, they MUST set aside their religious beliefs and let the Word speak to their heart. Tregelles likely believed the Church will go through the Tribulation. He was taught that in school, so that must be true. But one only has to to do a little reading to see that is just not possible. And if he really KNEW Jesus, and the LOVE of the Father, he would KNOW that was not possible. That is what drove me. And when I read it, I BELIEVED the Word.
Its kind of funny. Once you start seeing it, everything that was once confusing falls neatly into place. First, its clear there is a difference between Israel, Church, and the nations. Israel will face a very different End Times than the Church. I used to worry about the end times, maybe even be afraid. That is LONG GONE. The TRUTH makes you FREE! You will notice that the Bible is mostly about Israel, the Body of Christ is only discussed in a handful of books. Jesus was primarily ministering to Israel, so even his prophetic remarks need to be carefully considered before any attempt is made to apply them to the Body of Christ. The Church ABSOLUTELY did not replace Israel. Every prophesy, shadow and type will come to fruition in its proper time. But the point is, the Bible is FOR us, but not always written TO or ABOUT us. Very important to understand this key point.
This has gone too long - I apologize. I just started flowing. Just to sum up. I read his quote one last time. If he had ONLY heard it as a prophetic utterance, he SHOULD have opened the Scriptures and searched the matter out. But notice, he never refutes it with Scriptural evidence or even his own theory. Its just wrong because he said so - is what I get. It is possible those parts were edited out, and if that is the case, I take back what I said. The Truth is in the Word. Its up to individuals to seek it out and BELIEVE. Some will, others will not. I will end with the following. There just might be a faith component to the Rapture.
5 Because of faith Enoch was caught up and transferred to heaven, so that he did not have a glimpse of death; and he was not found, because God had translated him. For even before he was taken to heaven, he received testimony [still on record] that he had pleased and been satisfactory to God. [Gen. 5:21-24.]
The Amplified Bible (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1987), Heb 11:5.
107 posted on
04/22/2023 10:21:18 AM PDT by
Kandy Atz
("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
To: Kandy Atz
——>I find his conclusion almost humorous. He’s basically saying since I don’t believe it, its not true.
No, he’s saying it’s not in the bible and it’s a Satanic theory.
——>Samuel Prideaux Tregelles...Based on his own testimony, it does not sound like he even bothered to seek the Truth in the Word.
Yes, he certainly did. Here’s a link to the book in question. It’s not even debatable after you read it.
https://www.brethrenarchive.org/people/samuel-prideaux-tregelles/pamphlets/the-hope-of-christs-second-coming-how-is-it-taught-in-scripture-and-why/
On the bottom of page 59 to 60, he says this little gem:
“If there are points which are not certainly or definitely stated in Scripture, some conclusion may, perhaps, be formed from analogy or probable inference; but when the Scripture tells the events and their order, then what is called “ free enquiry “ has no place whatever. Those who sit in judgment on Scripture, and question or deny what it conclusively says, are not fitting persons to be listened to as teachers in the Church of Christ, whatever be their claims as to wisdom or holiness.”
No one knew anything about a secret PTR until the Catholic Church came up with their Counter Reformation smoke and mirror theories. Then, folks like Darby took it from there. It wasn’t taught by anyone until the 1800’s. The reason is...because it’s not in the bible.
What I quoted from him is only a drop in the bucket.
108 posted on
04/23/2023 4:52:40 AM PDT by
Philsworld
(Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
To: Kandy Atz
——>If he had ONLY heard it as a prophetic utterance, he SHOULD have opened the Scriptures and searched the matter out.
He did. It’s all in his book.
109 posted on
04/23/2023 4:54:08 AM PDT by
Philsworld
(Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
To: Kandy Atz
——>But notice, he never refutes it with Scriptural evidence or even his own theory.
Yes, he does. It’s clearly outlined in the book.
110 posted on
04/23/2023 4:55:23 AM PDT by
Philsworld
(Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
To: Kandy Atz
——>The Church ABSOLUTELY did not replace Israel.
The Church is a CONTINUATION of Israel.
111 posted on
04/23/2023 4:57:45 AM PDT by
Philsworld
(Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
To: Kandy Atz; patriot torch
An excellent post (107) that I know you’ll appreciate, Patriot.
Superb, Kandy Atz. Thanks for posting it.
112 posted on
04/23/2023 7:43:33 AM PDT by
SouthernClaire
(Jesus plus anything at all = idolatry & spiritual adultery.)
To: Kandy Atz
The priesthood ended spiritually with the death and resurrection of Jesus, and physically with the destruction of Jerusalem Good post but I have a problem here.
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
There are two priesthoods and they follow the order in 1 Corinthians 15:46. The first is natural or physical; the second would be the spiritual. It was the Levitical priesthood that ended with the resurrection.
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
113 posted on
04/24/2023 10:30:32 AM PDT by
Seven_0
(You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
To: Kandy Atz
There is nothing in the Bible that supports a pre-tribulation rapture.
That is why no Christians - not even those who left orthodoxy - no Christ believers had anything like the “pre tribulation rapture” as a belief system.
It, the pre-tribulation rapture, is purely an invention of Darby in the early 1800s to get followers. There was John Smith, the founder of Mormons, then the founder of the Seventh Day Adventists, the found of the Jevhosah’s Witnesses etc. who all were around in the USA in the early 1800s and created their religions to get followers.
117 posted on
04/27/2023 9:36:10 AM PDT by
Cronos
To: Kandy Atz
There was a time when Bible reading was discouraged, you do realize that is patently false, right?
The Church has 2 readings from the Bible each day and 3 on Sunday. In the course of 3 years you would hear the entire Bible
At no point in history has "Bible reading been discouraged" --> who told you such lies?
translation to a common tongue worthy of death
Again, this is a lie --> perhaps you don't know that many English versions of Scripture existed before Wycliff, and these were authorized by the Church.
I’m not sure why you think it was the Catholic Church that sentenced Tyndale to death. That’s not historically accurate. Henry leaned on his ally, King Charles V, to in turn lean on the Magistrate of Antwerp to get Tyndale executed.
Henry VIII wanted to be remarried and annul his previous marriage, but in 1530, Tyndale wrote The Practice of Prelates, a political tract opposing Henry VIII's political policies.
hence his final words “Lord, open the King of England’s eyes!”
118 posted on
04/27/2023 9:48:24 AM PDT by
Cronos
To: Kandy Atz
KandyAst
When Paul's teaching was rediscovered,Again, someone has fed you lies. Paul's teachings were never "lost" - they were read in Church daily or nearly daily
119 posted on
04/27/2023 10:03:04 AM PDT by
Cronos
To: Kandy Atz
There are numerous biblical texts that indicate both justification and salvation to be future and contingent realities, in one sense, as well as past completed realities in another sense:
Romans 2:13-16: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified… on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.
Romans 6:16: Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness? (Gr.dikaiosunen- “justification”)
Matt. 10:22: And you will be hated of all men for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Romans 13:11: For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.
I Cor. 5:5: You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
125 posted on
04/27/2023 10:45:14 PM PDT by
Cronos
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