| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
That’s hilarious.
You Catholics throw temper tantrums over getting held responsible for your kiddie diddler priests and the laity’s actions grooming those kids to obey the predator priests, and then turn around and smear us for the fake theology of a man we never defended or endorsed.
The hypocrisy of Catholics remains astounding.
Murphs, you know NOTHING about my doctrine.
As much as I’ve been trying to tell you for years, you constantly throw strawmen at me and insist that the untruths you tell are.
You spent a lot of effort for nothing, because your post is arguing against something I don’t believe. It’s worthless.
Stop insulting me with your strawmen. An apology would be nice too.
Let me repeat in short.
You are repeating lies told to you by someone else about what I believe.
Stop it.
And on top of that, repeating unproven allegations against someone unable to defend himself because he’s dead is disgustingly tacky.
I am not implying anything - just submitting mathematical data...
And I also am not implying you guys have been sold a bill of goods - I am stating it positively.
Unproven
Nope. Rape, Adultery, embezzlement, and more (much more). He used his position as spiritual leader and massage business owner to force women to have sex with him. You should ask his church organization. They investigated (see below). He did it. There is much more that I could have included. Denying it just makes one look pathetic.
Report of Independent Investigation into
Sexual Misconduct of Ravi Zacharias
February 9, 2021
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/rzimmedia.rzim.org/assets/downloads/Report-of-Investigation.pdf
Why do you spazz out every time someone mentions Ravi? That’s not normal behavior. Was he your spiritual leader?
Yes, OSAS is a license to sin (get out of hell free card). No Penalty for unrepentant, wilfull sin = LICENSE TO SIN.
It’s only disgustingly tacky if the allegations are unproven. These happen to be 100% legit. Ravi did it.
Heb 6:4-6 (NIV) provides the thunderstorm against once-saved-always-saved:
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen [3] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
A prominent evangelical defender of the faith worldwide, the late Ravi Zacharias, was declared an apostate – posthumously – by both his evangelical denomination (The Christian & Missionary Alliance) and by the ministry he founded RZIM.
This Christianity Today article begins: “A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than a decade while the ministry led by his family members and loyal allies failed to hold him accountable” (Ravi Zacharias Hid Hundreds of Pictures of Women, Abuse During Massages, and a Rape Allegation, February 11, 2021).
The Christian and Missionary Alliance has revoked his ordination posthumously (after his death) – “Ravi Zacharias’s Denomination Revokes Ordination”
clip_image003[1] RZIM organized research by lawyers and concluded: “Guilt beyond anything that we could have imagined.” It was “once the largest apologetics ministry in the world.” Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM) will stop doing apologetics work this year” (Christianity Today, March 10, 2021, “RZIM Will No Longer Do Apologetics.”)
We see the demise of an eminent apologist to that of what seems to be an apostate or one who could not control his sexual appetites.
https://www.truthchallenge.one/blog/tag/ravi-zacharias/
Let’s see here.
Is SDA theology still written by a false prophet? Yes.
Are false prophets, by definition according to Deuteronomy 18, not from God? Also yes.
Is SDA theology from God? By definition, no.
With that in mind, is it worth my time reading anything that uses SDA theology as a basis? Also a no.
Did you waste your time writing all those posts to me? Yes you did.
PS: I have literally no idea who this Ravi fellow even is. My spiritual head is Christ and I trust HIS words.
The spiritual head of Seventh Day Adventism is still a false prophet from the devil.
Took a deeper look at Ravi guy. Not 100% convinced, but I will concede that perhaps you have a point... in that people in spiritual leadership positions can be scum in disguise.
It doesn’t disprove OSAS like you think it does, and I don’t even believe in OSAS. Not in the same way my Evangelical brothers and sisters do at least; I’m more of a Lutheran non-Calvinist single-predestination guy.
I argue against YOU because A: your arguments are a hot mess, and B: The SDA error of works salvation is far more grievous than OSAS is.
Your argument of “this one evangelical preacher out of thousands succumbed to temptation and abused his position” is not the clever argument you think it is. Judas abused his position. Roman Catholics abused their positions. If that doesn’t convince Evangelicals, do you seriously think that one more predator will convince them? In fact, you only strengthened their position ‘cause the guy died an early physical death just like the Bible says will happen! You’re playing RIGHT into their hands and you don’t even seem to realize it.
Feeding that troll gives him a platform to post three or four more post swerving the god of cults.
Which get more and more ridiculous, I would argue.
Having said that I will consider your point carefully before replying again.
Placemarker
Why?
The tile of this thread is: Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven.
Why toss more, "LOOK! A squirrel!!" stuff into it?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.