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Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven
Tradition
| 03-06-2022
| CharlesOconnell
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
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To: af_vet_1981
That’s hilarious.
You Catholics throw temper tantrums over getting held responsible for your kiddie diddler priests and the laity’s actions grooming those kids to obey the predator priests, and then turn around and smear us for the fake theology of a man we never defended or endorsed.
The hypocrisy of Catholics remains astounding.
941
posted on
03/26/2022 7:33:16 PM PDT
by
Luircin
To: Luircin; Philsworld
Why do you enjoy accusing and implying that we use our salvation as a license to sin?
I'm implying that you're adhering to an incorrect doctrine that allows one to be able to sin inconsequentially. I cited some notables who espouse that theory publicly, so it us not my lone opinion.
I'm not "accusing" you of anything...especially the license to sin.
You have forgotten that, in sinning, we don't need any license because as humans, we sin.
That’s what we do, that's our nature.
We will in accord with what we believe in. So it's important that what we believe in is right..
If I know that "no sin" can separate me from my "salvation"... I can tell you as a sinful human being, that theory cannot help but to become practice at some point in our lives. We don't stop sinning because we believe in Jesus. The flesh is always... willing.
Nor should this be a judgement call on this Ravi preacher.
I don't really know who he is... but he is popular with many followers, and he hot into some trouble over texting?
what he must do is to confess and repent, and he will be restored.
I don't know his entire story, nor do I need to. We must remember though, He could be any one of us. We have to understand what sin really is, and not ignore it. We must look at it - like the bronze serpent in the desert. We'll see tomorrow,
the Prodigal Son parable - that begins with the Pharisees and scribes chastising Jesus because - “This man receives sinners and eats with them". Jesus straightens them out with the Prodigal.
We have to understand that the Prodigal Son - OR his judgemental Brother- IS ALL OF US at one time or another.
If you do not think you can be either one, then, no worries, you are already a Saint.
But for the rest of us, we need to always confront our sinfulness, and not with a theory that at some, one singular point in our lives, sin no longer effects our soul.
That is the point of the parable of today's Pharisee and tax collector in the Temple.
Oddly enough we can also find ourselves in either of those two people in that parable as well- unless of course again, you're already a saint.
The way they approach their sin is at the heart of what we need to understand. The Pharisee, as today's Gospel Reflection notes, the Pharisee speaks in the Temple to himself, massaging his ego by confirming his self-regard. The net effect upon the God in which he is praying to, ends up putting that God in the Pharisees' audience for his needs.
The Tax Collector on the other hand realizes that his sin requires God’s Mercy and Grace, begging to receive a mysterious mercy which he trusts in, though he doesn't deserve and can't merit it...
in this dynamic,, the tax collector becomes the audience for God's forgiving Grace- that unlike the Pharisee, he can only receive and cannot bind God to his ideals, for a merciful response for the sinful state of his being.
If we say sin does effect us after a certain point, we lose the opportunities- or need- to beg for that Grace of God's mercy.
And that's Spirit denying emptiness on our part then...
Where sin abounds, God's Grace will ALWAYS surpass it.
We must have trust, and faith, in God to allow us to deal with our sinfulness.
Do not deceive yourself... WE are the ones in those parables, we one day could be the Prodigal, squandering our inheritance, we are all like Ravi in some way.
Believing in a theory to escape the sin that injures our relationship with God, damages our soul,, to make us feel better about ourselves, robs us of God's Saving Grace.
The situation is not a hopeless one- but rather full of hope.
942
posted on
03/26/2022 9:33:20 PM PDT
by
MurphsLaw
(+++11"How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?"+++)
To: MurphsLaw
Murphs, you know NOTHING about my doctrine.
As much as I’ve been trying to tell you for years, you constantly throw strawmen at me and insist that the untruths you tell are.
You spent a lot of effort for nothing, because your post is arguing against something I don’t believe. It’s worthless.
Stop insulting me with your strawmen. An apology would be nice too.
943
posted on
03/26/2022 10:42:35 PM PDT
by
Luircin
To: MurphsLaw
Let me repeat in short.
You are repeating lies told to you by someone else about what I believe.
Stop it.
944
posted on
03/26/2022 10:48:31 PM PDT
by
Luircin
To: MurphsLaw
And on top of that, repeating unproven allegations against someone unable to defend himself because he’s dead is disgustingly tacky.
945
posted on
03/26/2022 10:52:16 PM PDT
by
Luircin
To: MurphsLaw
I'm implying that you're adhering to an incorrect doctrine that allows one to be able to sin inconsequentially.I am not implying anything - just submitting mathematical data...
Let's try some easy math:
There are approximately 1.2 billion Catholics world wide;
If merely 1% of them 'ask' Mary for help just once each day;
that means that 12 million separate prayers are headed Mary's direction every day.
Given that there are 86,400 seconds per day... (24 hours times 60 minutes times 60 seconds)
...that means that Mary has to handle approximately 139 'requests' per second!
Purty good fer someone NOT 'divine'!
And I also am not implying you guys have been sold a bill of goods - I am stating it positively.
946
posted on
03/27/2022 4:49:22 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: Luircin; MurphsLaw; af_vet_1981
Unproven
Nope. Rape, Adultery, embezzlement, and more (much more). He used his position as spiritual leader and massage business owner to force women to have sex with him. You should ask his church organization. They investigated (see below). He did it. There is much more that I could have included. Denying it just makes one look pathetic.
Report of Independent Investigation into
Sexual Misconduct of Ravi Zacharias
February 9, 2021
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/rzimmedia.rzim.org/assets/downloads/Report-of-Investigation.pdf
Why do you spazz out every time someone mentions Ravi? That’s not normal behavior. Was he your spiritual leader?
Yes, OSAS is a license to sin (get out of hell free card). No Penalty for unrepentant, wilfull sin = LICENSE TO SIN.
To: Luircin
It’s only disgustingly tacky if the allegations are unproven. These happen to be 100% legit. Ravi did it.
To: Luircin
Heb 6:4-6 (NIV) provides the thunderstorm against once-saved-always-saved:
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen [3] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
To: Luircin
A prominent evangelical defender of the faith worldwide, the late Ravi Zacharias, was declared an apostate – posthumously – by both his evangelical denomination (The Christian & Missionary Alliance) and by the ministry he founded RZIM.
This Christianity Today article begins: “A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than a decade while the ministry led by his family members and loyal allies failed to hold him accountable” (Ravi Zacharias Hid Hundreds of Pictures of Women, Abuse During Massages, and a Rape Allegation, February 11, 2021).
The Christian and Missionary Alliance has revoked his ordination posthumously (after his death) – “Ravi Zacharias’s Denomination Revokes Ordination”
clip_image003[1] RZIM organized research by lawyers and concluded: “Guilt beyond anything that we could have imagined.” It was “once the largest apologetics ministry in the world.” Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM) will stop doing apologetics work this year” (Christianity Today, March 10, 2021, “RZIM Will No Longer Do Apologetics.”)
We see the demise of an eminent apologist to that of what seems to be an apostate or one who could not control his sexual appetites.
https://www.truthchallenge.one/blog/tag/ravi-zacharias/
To: Philsworld
Let’s see here.
Is SDA theology still written by a false prophet? Yes.
Are false prophets, by definition according to Deuteronomy 18, not from God? Also yes.
Is SDA theology from God? By definition, no.
With that in mind, is it worth my time reading anything that uses SDA theology as a basis? Also a no.
Did you waste your time writing all those posts to me? Yes you did.
951
posted on
03/27/2022 6:34:17 AM PDT
by
Luircin
To: Philsworld
PS: I have literally no idea who this Ravi fellow even is. My spiritual head is Christ and I trust HIS words.
The spiritual head of Seventh Day Adventism is still a false prophet from the devil.
952
posted on
03/27/2022 6:41:13 AM PDT
by
Luircin
To: Philsworld
Took a deeper look at Ravi guy. Not 100% convinced, but I will concede that perhaps you have a point... in that people in spiritual leadership positions can be scum in disguise.
It doesn’t disprove OSAS like you think it does, and I don’t even believe in OSAS. Not in the same way my Evangelical brothers and sisters do at least; I’m more of a Lutheran non-Calvinist single-predestination guy.
I argue against YOU because A: your arguments are a hot mess, and B: The SDA error of works salvation is far more grievous than OSAS is.
Your argument of “this one evangelical preacher out of thousands succumbed to temptation and abused his position” is not the clever argument you think it is. Judas abused his position. Roman Catholics abused their positions. If that doesn’t convince Evangelicals, do you seriously think that one more predator will convince them? In fact, you only strengthened their position ‘cause the guy died an early physical death just like the Bible says will happen! You’re playing RIGHT into their hands and you don’t even seem to realize it.
953
posted on
03/27/2022 8:16:50 AM PDT
by
Luircin
To: Luircin
Feeding that troll gives him a platform to post three or four more post swerving the god of cults.
954
posted on
03/27/2022 4:25:33 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
To: MHGinTN
Which get more and more ridiculous, I would argue.
Having said that I will consider your point carefully before replying again.
955
posted on
03/27/2022 5:48:44 PM PDT
by
Luircin
To: Luircin
To: Luircin
...repeating unproven allegations against someone unable to defend himself because he’s dead is disgustingly tacky.
What allegations?
Though no, I didn't know he wasn't alive...and didn't spend much time on it- quck look on the web... but And so how is what I wrote tacky?
Reread it.
Why the drama show? For whom?
" Nor should this be a judgement call on this Ravi preacher. I don't really know who he is... but he is popular with many followers, and he hot into some trouble over texting? what he must do is to confess and repent, and he will be restored. I don't know his entire story, nor do I need to. We must remember though, He could be any one of us".
957
posted on
03/27/2022 8:21:07 PM PDT
by
MurphsLaw
(+++11"How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?"+++)
To: Luircin
you know NOTHING about my doctrine.
I’m more of a Lutheran non-Calvinist single-predestination guy.
Well that's mouthful. How in the heck is anyone suppose to know what that team is all about?
Sheesh...
How old is this particular brand been around?
958
posted on
03/27/2022 8:32:35 PM PDT
by
MurphsLaw
(+++11"How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?"+++)
To: Elsie
- just submitting mathematical data...
Should I be surprised that you mimic the same skeptical thought of the non- believer questioning Christianity?
Reminds me of the person who says "If Jesus is God... who's minfing the store in heaven, while Jesus is a helpless baby child here on Earth"?
Mathematically impossible you say?
Well,
I see your earthly world mathematics, and raise you some supernatural metaphysics.
Will not be walking by sight on this desl...
Now if you believe the Blessed Virgin Mary, for all ages, is truly praying for us through her Queenship of Heaven, than you can grasp this time construct- or lack thereof- about God.
Here's some CS Lewis that helped me out many moons ago...
From True and Pure WordPress.com:
(C.S. Lewis can say it much better than I can, so if this post is a little quote-heavy, that’s why. )
He starts by identifying the problem:
A man put it to me by saying, ‘I can believe in God…but what I cannot swallow is the idea of him attending to several million human beings who are all addressing Him at the same moment’…what is really at the back of this difficulty is the idea of God having to fit too many things into one moment of time.
But…is God in time at all? Just because all we know is a life moment by moment, does that mean that is how all things are?
C.S. Lewis thinks not.
Almost certainly God is not in Time. His life does not consist of moments following one another. If a million people are praying to Him at ten-thirty tonight, He need not listen to them all in that one little snippet which we call ten-thirty. Ten-thirty…is always the Present for Him.
STOP. Don’t continue reading this post. Read that quote several more times. Then think about it for at least one or two minutes before you continue. Mull over it. The more you think about it, the more it will blow your mind.
Now. Promise me you thought about that a little bit. If you’re more confused than anything, Lewis uses two illustrations that might help you. The second one especially helped me.
The first is that of an author writing a novel.
I write ‘Mary laid down her work; next moment came a knock at the door!’ For Mary, who has to live in the imaginary time of my story, there is no interval between putting down the work and hearing the knock. But I, who am Mary’s maker, do not live in that imaginary time at all. Between writing the first half of that sentence and the second, I might sit for three hours and think steadily about Mary…the hours I spent in doing so would not appear in Mary’s time (the time inside the story) at all.
The second illustration is what really made this concept click in my mind.
If you picture Time as a straight line along which we have to travel, then you must picture God as the whole page on which the line is drawn. We come to the parts of the line one by one: we have to leave A behind before we get to B, and cannot reach C until we leave B behind. God, from above or outside or all round, contains the whole line, and sees it all.
In other words, “with Him it is, so to speak, still 1920 and already 1960”. (remember that this book was written in 1952.)
IS YOUR MIND BLOWN YET??
Here’s one more way of putting it:
…what we call ‘tomorrow’ is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call ‘today’. All the days are ‘Now’ for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them, because, though you have lost yesterday, He has not. He does not ‘foresee’ you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him…He knows your tomorrow’s actions…because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you…the moment at which you have done it is already ‘Now’ for Him.
This is the one of those things that just gets more amazing and weird and cool the more you think about it. It was all I could think about for about twenty minutes after I read this chapter. It’s so cool!!!
What do you think? Do you find this as cool as I do? Does it blow your mind??
959
posted on
03/27/2022 9:05:21 PM PDT
by
MurphsLaw
(+++11"How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?"+++)
To: Luircin
Took a deeper look at Ravi guy. Why?
The tile of this thread is: Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven.
Why toss more, "LOOK! A squirrel!!" stuff into it?
960
posted on
03/27/2022 9:30:55 PM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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