Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven

Tradition | 03-06-2022 | CharlesOconnell

[metmom]

Jesus didn’t die in heaven.

It’s in heaven where He is now seated at the right hand of God.

[metmom]

Hebrews 9:24-28 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Hebrews 10:8-14 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

[af_vet_1981]

That's a rather fanciful interpretation.

Is it in the scriptures that the church of Rome (see Book of Romans) is the church at Thyatira ? If not, is it part of your faith community's tradition, or is it personal interpretation ?

In either case it exposes the weak foundation, even if it is not outright hypocrisy, should one argue for sola scriptura but form personal interpretations that are not in the scriptures.

Thyatira:

• 18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
• 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
• 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
• 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
• 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
• 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
• 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
• 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
• 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
• 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
• 28 And I will give him the morning star.
• 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rome:

• 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
• 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
• 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
• 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
• 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
• 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
• 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
• 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
• 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
• 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
• 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
• 12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

By the way, worshiping Jesus is not idol worship.

[Jim W N]

By the way, worshiping Jesus is not idol worship.

No, but worshipping Mary IS idol worship.

[Steve_Seattle]

The doctrine of “sola scriptura” is - in fact - a doctrine. And it avoids the question of differing interpretations of scripture by various denominations. Who decides which interpretation is correct? In Catholicism and Orthodoxy, it is the Councils and the Fathers. In Protestantism, every man is his own Pope, hence the multiplicity of denominations.

[af_vet_1981]

No, but worshipping Mary IS idol worship.

I'm not aware of any Orthodox or Catholic teaching that Mary is a goddess. It seems to me that to assert Mary is being worshipped implicity asserts she is a goddess. Do you think Mary is a goddess ?

[Jim W N]

I think that the standard Catholic approach is to worship Mary which is idol worship. Mary was specially picked to be the mother of Jesus, but she was a sinful person just like anyone.

Only Jesus was sinless, the only Son of God and only Jesus should be worshipped.

[af_vet_1981]

You did not answer the question, "Do you think Mary is a goddess ?"

Instead, I understood you to assert that Mary was totally depraved according to John Calvin ("a sinful person just like anyone"). Is that what you believe ?

[Jim W N]

Who said that Mary was totally depraved?

And your “goddess” question is irrelevant and deflective. Nobody said anything about Mary being a goddess unless that’s what the Catholics think.

The Catholic approach is to worship Mary, a flawed human being just like everyone, and that is idol worship. Stick to the point there af_vet_1981.

[MurphsLaw]

As if one should believe such a fantastic tale. Being about a women, Sarah, who has lost seven husbands because Asmodeus, the demon of lust, and "the worst of demons,"

So you know, there were actually 5 copies of "Tobit" found in the Qumran deposit of Sacred Writings used by the Essenes- the ascetic Jews who saw the Temple as defiled and corrupt, Just as Christ did.
Now you may question which books of the Canon the Holy Spirit got wrong...and which ones were right as decided upon by the Catholic Church...

But what is not debatable for you is that the The Jewish sect of
Essenes DID believe "such fantastic tales" (as you say) as sacred scripture along side their other sacred scrolls- as the DSS historical evidence has proven.
Even post-Christian rabbinical Judaism that came after the Resurrection can't refute that...

[Mark17]

I think that the standard Catholic approach is to worship Mary which is idol worship.

I worshipped Mary, when I was a Catholic. Now, I am an ex Catholic, and I don’t do that anymore. 🤗

[metmom]

I'm not aware of any Orthodox or Catholic teaching that Mary is a goddess. It seems to me that to assert Mary is being worshipped implicity asserts she is a goddess. Do you think Mary is a goddess ?

If she’s not, then why do Catholics treat her like one?

Catholics can deny all they want that they don’t think she is, but actions speak louder than words and what Catholics DO speaks a louder and different message than what their mouths say.

[MHGinTN]

The core of a very fine Sunday School Lesson. Bravo and Selah.

[MurphsLaw]

If you have to work to keep your salvation, the salvation is by works, IOW, earning it.

Paul seems to think we must cooperate with God, and work on something related to salvation, or his writings make no sense ... so we have to assume he had his reasons:

... but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

In the same way he warns his “saved” Corinthians about abusing the Eucharist - “eating and drinking judgement upon themselves” -
again another verse, that makes no sense
if our salvation is a guaranteed deal...
Unable to be lost without Doing something.

[metmom]

In Protestantism, every man is his own Pope, hence the multiplicity of denominations

Like one pope over everyone is a better deal?

Like that guy you have inhabiting the Vatican at the moment?

Explain to me again how your system of one pope is better than that of allegedly many.

[MHGinTN]

Is Heaven IN the Universe God created? Did God create Heaven?

Without time events do not occur; without space a thing is not IN the created Universe. ONLY God is outside AND inside His created Universe. Without The Word nothing was created, but by and through Him were ALL THINGS CREATED.

[metmom]

In Protestantism, every man is his own Pope, hence the multiplicity of denominations

If your reasoning were applied to politics, then by your thinking, it would be better to live under a dictatorship than a representative republic where the individual is free to make their own life choices.

Your argument would be equivalent to claiming living under a dictatorship is better because if people were allowed to make their own decisions, they might do something the powers that be don’t approve of, or might even make a wrong decision or bad choice, therefore we have to have a dictator decide for us what is best for us. After all, how can we be trusted to do what’s *right* without external compulsion?

Gotta protect people from themselves at all costs.

But don’t dare ask how we should be protecting the people from those moral busybodies.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” C.S. Lewis

Thus Catholicism demonstrates that those within it don’t trust others to make wise, intelligent, moral decisions on their own, basically revealing the moral depravity of their own souls, through their projection.

[metmom]

Working out is not working for.