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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
Luke 12:32-48 King James Version 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more
MM: There is an error in presuming that Ravi was sinning wantonly and unrepentantly.
PHIL: Trust me, Ravi “wanted” it (see what I did there?). That was well established by even his church in their investigation. The only question remaining is if he died in unrepentant sin. Newsflash: I DON’T CARE! It’s not my job to make the decision on his eternal salvation. God will make that decision. But, if he did die in unrepentant sin, there’s no chance he is going to heaven according to the bible. And we are talking about one of “THE” Christian poster boys.
MM: We can judge his actions by comparing to Scripture which calls it sin....
PHIL: Why would you care what sin is? You, Ravi, and all of your FR friends are IMMUNE to it. You get a free pass. Ravi rapes and commits adultry (many other sins BTW) and he’s still going to heaven? Oh noooooooos, it was Ravi’s flesh that was sinning, not his spirit. Right?
(from some random internet article)
The doctrine and works of the Nicolatians came forth from a wrong interpretation of the grace of God that was preached by the apostles. They misused the Grace of God and the liberty in Christ to fulfill their carnal (sexual) lusts and desires.
They believed and said that a person is saved by grace and therefore it doesn’t matter how you live. By faith in Jesus Christ, the spirit of a person is saved, but since you are bound by the flesh, in which evil is present, you will always remain a sinner and always keep on sinning. You serve God through your spirit, but you keep serving your flesh and it’s lusts and desires during your life on earth.
MM, this is YOUR doctrine. Substitute in any sin. It is grievous error to claim God’s grace covers you from the PENALTY of future sin. That is made very, very (very) clear in the bible (Hebrews 10).
Ravi would have made a terrific Nicolatian.
Definition of antinomian: a believer in the doctrine that faith alone, not obedience to the moral law, is necessary for salvation.” Websters New World Dictionary.
Think, son, did God offer His Grace 'if you can keep it'? Can you eat the life of Christ and obtain eternal life? ... Yes, that is a blasphemy from Catholicism, but the same irrational perspective is evident in your wrongheaded questions and accusations. Why do you insist on focusing on Ravi Zacharias so pridefully? Yes, Phil is better than Ravi 'because Phil doesn't do what Ravi did' ... that will not fly at the Great White Throne of Judgment destined for all who are not washed int he blood of the Lamb, redeemed from their sinful flesh with God's Life abiding in their once fallen spirit. Are you expecting to stand at the Great Whi9te Throne of Judgment? How do you think God will deal with your effort to divert attention to Ravi rather than Phil? Think, son, your eternity is teetering in the balance.
The RCC bitches about one man leaving their grasp; but seem all buddy-buddy with a LARGE group that did: the EO folks.
Can anyone explain THAT to me?
I've seen this kind of behavior before...
Lessee...Was it in #192 or #175???
They will try and it won’t make any sense so they’ll just label it a “mystery of the faith”.
UMMmmmm...
I don't know...
1 John 3:4-11 ESV
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
“What a tangled web we weave...
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
1 John 2:1
Galatians 6:1 ESV
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
There is no penalty for the believer.
Bible College graduate BoatBums says there IS a penalty for the believer. She won’t tell me (she keeps telling me she did, but she didn’t). So, what is that penalty? (not consequences)...maybe message her and get your stories straight?
Does being saved by grace make one a believer and immune from the penalty of future, unrepentant sin? Hebrews 10:26-31 CLEARLY says no.
26: If we continue to sin willfully after...
29: 29 how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Claiming the blood of the covenant and then willfully sinning, thinking you are immune?
These verses straight up say the complete opposite of what you people are peddling as gospel.
“and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
Unrepentant sinners who try to hide behind grace will pay the ultimate price of eternal death. If Ravi did it (and he did by all accounts) and IF he died in unrepentant sin (not my call), he’s in big, big trouble. And that goes for anyone else on this earth who reverts back to unrepentant sin after being saved by grace. OSAS is a lie. Looks like Ravi was all in (in more ways than one).
Something else...Sin is the transgression of God’s law. You all believe sin has no effect on you after grace, so God’s law doesn’t apply to you. You have essentially made the moral law of God null and void. That’s what you TEACH. Sin at will if you want, because there will be no PENALTY, right?
Who we gonna believe? Webster or that Other Guy??
John 6:25-4025 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?” 26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” 30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]” 32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.” 35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” |
I confess that I've not been to Bible College, and am mostly self taught (with a wee, little input from the Holy Spirit) but I seem to recall that details were not given at the end of the book...
Revelation 20:11-15
"Then I saw a great White Throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and THE BOOKS WERE OPENED.Another book was opened WHICH IS THE BOOK OF LIFE.The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books.The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to their works.Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire.The Lake of Fire is the second death.If anyone's name was not found written IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire."I can not do much about what is written in most of the "books".I can only hope - pray - believe that my name IS to be found in the only 'book' that matters eternally: The BOOK of Life.
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
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But none of that matters because if you are covered by grace you get a free pass? OHHHhhh...?
I don’t lay the eggs - I just color them.
They split from the EO...
Rev 21:27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Does this include unrepentant sinners???
HMMMmmm...
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I didn't say that, MM did in post 193.
OHHHHhhhhhhhh?
Are you even aware that you commit sins that you are bnot aware of ... like false witness when you actually believe you are post truth but are in fact posting false witness?
Hilarious, coming from someone who actually does that on a daily basis (you).
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