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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
From your lack of understanding how to read the scriptures -to whom and in what context- I am wondering if you are actually Jewish, so you have a different perspective from New Testament Christianity!
So far at least three have posted a response explaingin what your dead soul blindness refuses to apprehend.
I assure you that is not the case. Every response from your side to the question “What is the penalty for unrepentant sin?” (despite being saved by grace) has either been a non-answer, gobbledygook, a funny meme, or Satan influenced Kabuki theater. Why don’t you man up and answer the question, now, and settle it once and for all? Maybe ask your pastor, Andy Woods (I’m serious, because it seems like you don’t have a clue). Take your time if you need to. Just spit it out and be as clear and concise as possible. It shouldn’t be a difficult question to answer.
1) Anyone living in unrepentant sin is not likely a believer in the first place.
By all accounts Ravi was the Gold Standard “saved” Christian.
I don’t take anything seriously from someone who posts what they claim to be Scripture and yet refuses the courtesy towards others to post the reference so they can look it up themselves and verify that at least it really is Scripture.
Men look at the surface.
God sees the heart.
Can you see the man’s heart through his entire life, Phil?
Are you claiming to be God, Phil?
How fortunate that it is impossible for someone who abides in God’s grace to sin unrepentantly.
Because saved by grace means they are now all robots and can’t sin?
Nope! Paul describes exactly the opposite, those originally SAVED BY GRACE. Then, they revert back to their old ways....”and hath done despite unto the spirit of Grace”.
Hebrews 10:
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Can you see the man’s heart through his entire life, Phil?
Why would I need to? That’s God’s job and He has given adequate warnings to those Christians who revert back to sin, and then die in that sin. They will not be in heaven. I’m not concerned in the least about a dead man named Ravi. His fate is decided one way or the other and there’s nothing anyone can do to change it. But if he died in UNREPENTANT SIN, he chose poorly. I only use him as an example of anyone reverting back to sin, once saved by grace, who thinks they are covered for the rest of their lives regardless, because someone (maybe on FR) told them OSAS.
So why are you demanding that we answer your questions about repentant and unrepentant sin, Phil?
If it’s God’s job to determine the heart, why are you repeatedly asking me questions that only God can answer?
Are you calling ME God, Phil?
Hi, Phil. I’m going to try it, but I think I already know what’s coming.
1. For whom did Jesus state He came?
2. Was the Kingdom promised to Israel or to gentiles?
3. Was, and will in future, Israel to be tasked with bringing people to the knowledge of God?
4. Are gentiles part of God’s future program to bring people to Him when Jesus returns?
5. Will the “Son of David” rule over the earthly Kingdom of Israel?
Regarding your oft asked question of Ravi Zacharias possibly sinning in such a wicked way is that God forgives ALL of our sins. Self-righteous people hate the notion.
6. Do you believe God is operating a plan in which He saves people but then learns they sin and un-saves them?
7. When God saved us, did He not know the sins we would commit in the future?
8. Could God not look forward in time and see what was going to happen in the future when He saved the person?
It is the Holy Spirit in us that drives us to not sin but at times we are all overcome by the desires of the flesh ... including you. We repent and try again. If RV really did what he was accused of doing, trust real Christians when they tell you that RV was severely chastised and the burden of sinning in such an awful way tore at his spirit. He paid severely, I guarantee you.
There is no penalty for the believer. This has been paid at the cross before the sin was ever committed.
There are though significant consequences.
The three most significant are:
1. Broken fellowship with the Father now
2. The possibility that the believer's life on earth will be terminated before it runs it's normal span
3. The loss of rewards at the Bema seat.
All terrible.
Of course, until you come to saving faith in Christ alone, apart from your own works, this is an academic Q&A for you...
Why not come to Him for eternal life now, today?
“9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.”
‘We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present ... in purgatory.”
Does that sound ‘bout right, Els?
(2 Corinthians 5:8)
Sorry, AMPU. Meant to ping you to 211.
Thank you SouthernClaire!
The apparition and Rosary are bogus.
Well and tyruly stated ... and it will be rejected immediately by the self rihhteous cultist who imagines he can keep eternal life which he sadly has yet to have.
LOL, I don’t think the cultist has a sense of humor.
The cultist is incapable of ‘connecting the dots’, as explained for us by Brother Paul regarding the carnal mind. But the string of cogent points is brilliant, sister.
Thank you, MHG. If a person knows Scripture well enough or is willing to search out the matter, they may just come to the knowledge of the truth.
Thank you bro.
I know the odds of a person hardened into falsehood seeing the light are slim...
But God is gracious and forgiving and wants all to come to saving faith.
And I truly hope those reading this thread come to see the Indescribable Gift Christ is and enter into eternal life and assurance.
There is an error in presuming that Ravi was sinning wantonly and unrepentantly.
That is not for us to know or judge.
We can judge his actions by comparing to Scripture which calls it sin, but we simply cannot know his heart and we are not in the position to be able to make that determination.
That is God’s job and His alone and it is not anyone’s place to demand others to make that judgment. Taking such a position and making that demand of others is, in effect, usurping God.
It’s not a place any believer should dare to tread.
Personally, Metmom, I have a very hard time believing he did those things because it was mighty convenient that the accusers came out after his death when his estate would have been open and a timeline existing to file a claim. Usually 90 days.
Why not make the claims while he was alive?
It doesn’t add up to me and that’s why I used “if” in my sentence. I just don’t buy it.
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