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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
This is why I keep saying that we could settle this disagreement simply with an understanding of perspective.
From God’s perspective, those who have salvation cannot possibly lose it, because God’s written the story, and HE is the author, not us.
But from a human perspective, it’s possible to think that you genuinely believe, and yet your belief is a false one, or to think you have faith, but to fall away because of either persecution or the allures of the world.
It’d easily resolve all those passages that we keep throwing back and forth at each other.
Thank you so much, MHG.
I love your entire post, but would like to especially pay attention to this great part:
“Is it hard to believe that before the Universe was even created, God as The Word, had a knowledge/listing of/for the humans descended from Adam who would believe in Whom God sends for their redemption? God knows the end from the beginning.”
When a person believes they can lose their salvation that God gave them, they’re making God into someone who would give you something and then say, “HEY! Didn’t know that about you when I gave it you. Give it back!”
Cheap date, if you’re asking me.
(Maybe He overlooked something in my past since He doesn’t seem to get the future correct?)
Walter Martin said, “It’s a good thing He saved me then because He might change His mind if He saw me now.”
I’m glad He sees all of time at once and that He gives us His Holy Spirit as an earnest payment.
Well, we all know one thing we can all agree on: God can’t learn anything. That’s not possible. God also can’t lie, of course. Losing salvation puts Him in the position of doing one or the other.
Taking a perspective of space-time from on high, OSAS can’t be refuted ... unless we say God learns something when we sin that He didn’t know when He saved us or that He saves in vain or that He lied when He said it. I’m not willing to believe that God is NOT all-knowing, which is really a very stupid idea. And He sure isn’t a liar. His word states that He does nothing in vain. Looks like we’ve about run out of options here, yeah?
Salvation made easy: Jesus + nothing = Salvation.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Thank you. This is what I’m trying to tell people, and I admit my frustration when they don’t seem to want to see. Maybe it’s because I’m usually in a position of teaching authority.
Anyways, God’s perspective is not our perspective, but Scripture is written to speak according to both.
So what from our perspective looks like losing faith or falling away does not mean that God’s election to grant us salvation is invalidated. It simply means that we don’t know the whole story and we are in a situation where we must live with that limited knowledge.
And according to that limited knowledge, people will fall away, but from the eternal perspective OSAS. But since we live in OUR limited perspective, we should still live as if it were possible to lose salvation because we can experience falling away in our limited perspective even if it’s impossible according to the eternal perspective. And we should also live THAT way.
God has a way of using paradox to reveal eternal truth.
I deeply appreciate your views and how you present them, Luicirn.
“... we should still live as if it were possible to lose salvation because we can experience falling away in our limited perspective even if it’s impossible according to the eternal perspective. And we should also live THAT way.”
I can’t see how a person could live a life of being bold for Christ Jesus if they’re constantly doubting and asking, “Have I done enough right that I’m still saved?” (Alternatively, “Have I not done enough bad that I’m still saved?”) How does God want us to believe? We can both agree, I think, on that viewpoint. Do the scriptures teach that He wants us to feel that we have to run the hamster wheel until we die or to be secure in His word that He saves us now and forever?
I believe that the Holy Spirit in a person has them constantly trying to aim for the best in living their life because God gave us His Best.
When God promises, it will come to pass. when God says nothing/noone can take us from His hand,we ought to take that to the bank, so to speak, because noone is powerful enought to contradict His Promise. A Christian should live on the Promise of God, not on the doubt satan is constantly trying to impart. There is coming a moment in space and time when satan’s ability to sow doubt will end for those in the Body of Christ. The Rapture transformation will impart a new glorified body and perfected behavior mechanism, to go along with the born again spirit in the which God is abiding
Take the 'you' and 'your' as generic, so you don't presume I am attacking you. I am however assaulting your belief system which opens doors to doubt the Promises of God. No org can guarantee His Promises, nor can it nullify His intent.
The encouragement you are giving is very much appreciated and helpful.
In this case, what I’m attempting to say is less a warning against not doing enough to earn salvation, but I more mean “living that way” in the sense that people will fall away—at least from our perspective. We know that this will happen because God himself has said so.
We shouldn’t let it damage our faith when it happens.
On top of that, we can simply allow it to be a distinction between saving faith and intellectual assent. A firm warning about how the wages of sin is death should terrify someone into seeking the true Gospel, especially if they thought that a mealy-mouthed “belief” that shows no fruits of faith is enough.
When God promises, it will come to pass.
***
Did I ever say that it won’t?
But some people need to hear it from the human perspective in order to eventually reach God’s perspective.
The reason our so called “future sins” are covered is because when God saved us, He took the whole record of our sin debt and did away with it.
It wasn’t the sin just up until the point where we got saved and then we have to manage the rest.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Then He transferred us into the kingdom of Jesus.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
And we are now seated in heaven with Christ. We, being in Christ, are positionally, in the spiritual realm, already there.
Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
“In this case, what I’m attempting to say is less a warning against not doing enough to earn salvation, but I more mean “living that way” in the sense that people will fall away—at least from our perspective. We know that this will happen because God himself has said so.”
I understand, Luircin. I will openly admit that the more sin I get rid of, the more I seem to find in myself.
But that is exactly what it should be, isn’t it? To grow ever sensitive to the sin in our lives as led by His Holy Spirit?
The Walter Martin quote, you mean? Ha, ha. I love that one!
Excellent post, MM.
But that is exactly what it should be, isn’t it? To grow ever sensitive to the sin in our lives as led by His Holy Spirit?
***
Yep! The more sensitive you get to sin in your life, the more you know that the Holy Spirit is working within you.
I am certainly not dogmatic, but I always thought the great white throne, was not to determine whether these people were saved or lost. That had already been determined. It is to determine the amount of punishment they will get. What a terrifying moment for billions.
I believe we will be present, as witnesses for the prosecution. I think this is where the men of Nineveh and the Queen of Sheba will rise in judgment. I believe we will too. I want to sit next to the Queen of Sheba. 😀🤗🙃👍
“Yep! The more sensitive you get to sin in your life, the more you know that the Holy Spirit is working within you.”
“I am not what I ought to be, I am not what I want to be, I am not what I hope to be in another world; but still I am not what I once used to be, and by the grace of God I am what I am.”
― John Newton
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