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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
Think, Catholic. Had Jesus been crucified and risen and sent the Holy Spirit to abide in believers when He healed the man? Stop trying to stretch every passage to fit catholic mythology. Think! What and to whom and when, etc. Your approach to scriptures makes it confusing to allow the scriptures to explain themselves. But then that is the agenda, so the priesthood is empowered and the myths keep rolling along.
See, THAT’S the kind of verse that you can use to argue against OSAS. You can use the parable of the sower too, if you want to. I’m not saying that you’ve convinced me in the slightest because I’ve already addressed those in context personally, but at least you’re in Scripture and not talking about some rando.
You have not, however, addressed the whole “No one shall snatch them out of my hand” thing that MHGinTN mentioned, nor the “This is the work of God: to believe in him who he has sent” thing, meaning that I still must accuse you of cherry picking.
You are 100% correct.
Is it easier to say your sins are forgiven or rise up and walk ?
The Son of Man has the power to forgive sins.
Which it seems that Catholicism doesn’t believe, considering that they still demand that sins be worked off in Purgatory.
Jesus further speaks to His Father, to Whom He addresses in His Priestly prayer, overheard and fully recorded by Beloved John (Jn. 17) that fully secures that salvation is by Jesus' works alone, including the shedding of His sin-eradicating Blood alone, and recounted to the regenerate believer alone, excluding any justified, pre-sanctified human works of any kind (Eph. 2:8-10 as one indication, but enough though restated a thousand times, no less true).
What you, MHGinTN, have written is once more a factual statement that says that the human spirit may be restored to communication with The Creator as at the Beginning, while yet in this sin-soiled body, before its replacement by a new spiritual flesh-and-bones body like that of the Risen Messiah.
Remember, Jesus came to blood-clean human souls (Heb. 10:39), investing its yet-sinful-able flesh, but together with a freshly unsinning spirit accompanied by the Guiding Holy Spirit, the saved individual becoming ready for shedding of the old husk that now hides the chrysalis-like new spiritual body.
Eh?
Would you ping this post of mine to your ping list (upon your assent, that is)?
“... the chrysalis-like new spiritual body.” I like the imagery there. Paul did say that there is a spirit body. Thank you for taking time to post on this topic, brother.
Scripture says not. Paul says not. MHGinTN says not. Fala says not(!):
"But weborn-anew non-Catholics are not of themRomanly catechized Catholics who draw back unto perdition; but of themOSAS convinced that believe to the savingby the Savior Alone of the soul" (Heb 10:39 AV; superscripts interpretive explanations added).
>> It actually happens very often, usually a result of a tragedy. I have experienced this first hand in my family. <<
Your opinion is based on an unscriptural but catechised false assumption. What you apparently have not considered that the God-inspired Scripture is quite correct throughout from the beginning to its completion (at the time of Beloved John); nor of the fulfillment and abrogation of the Law Covenant by Jesus at the Cross, and finalized by the propitiation of man's sins by our High Priest in the offering of His Incorruptible Blood One-time Sacrifice before the Eyes of Our Heavenly Father, the same Blood Ever-fresh upon the Mercy Seat before Him, forever.
Thus, most probably your relative DID walk away from God's Gift, not trusting that whatever The Mighty Righteous God decides to allow to happen, results in good. ALWAYS.
And thus, your relative was not saved by infant baptism, nor by being catechized by another non-believer, nor saved by his/her own works, presumtively not by "Last Rites" applied by someone else either, but not personally and deliberaately casting ALL his/her cares upon Jesus (1 Pet. 5:7) accepting Salvation comprising Eternal Never-ending Absolute Life attainable by faith/change-of-mind Alone, the remedial trust wholly in Jesus Alone (2 Pet. 3:9,15), as confirmed by knowledge from Scripture Alone.
And thus to Hell for The Disbelieving, as the Jews mind-set was in John 10:22-41; announced by the lips of the God-Incarnate Messiah Alone, exercising Sword of the Spirit to separate the dead souls from their dead spirits.
Are you defying Heb. 10:39, which excludes true God-saved children from Heb. 6:6 and 10:26?
See, THAT’S the kind of verse that you can use to argue against OSAS.
Soooooooooo, a group of texts that ACTUALLY tells the saved that if they continue in unrepentant, willful sin after Grace, and that they should expect to lose their salvation if they take that path....THAT doesn’t send up a flag for you? Dude, THAT is THE text proving OSAS is a lie. Yes, there are many other supporting texts, but this one slams it home.
Hebrews 10:
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
And, ask MHG why he can’t discuss it. Did Andy tell him to stay away from it?
You know who has two thumbs and doesn’t care what literally hellish theology from a false prophet you’re spewing?
This guy!
The book of Tobit does NOT allow for indulgences. Where are you getting this mistaken information?
Does not your Bible include the words of Jesus conferring the Holy Spirit on Peter and the apostles?
“Whose sins you shall forgive — they are forgiven them.
Whose sings you shall withhold — they are witholden them.”
Prodigal Son or Merciful Father?
The Catholic Church does NOT sell indulgences. Where are you getting this mistaken information?
God waits for all sinners to return to Him and He is joyful. Think about it, please.
False World Principle #2
Only look at passages out of context
Salvation, I haven’t seen you in quite a while. I do hope you are well. A while back I was joining others in praying for your health.
The sinful human that the Latin-speaking peoples have nominated to replace Him, this Simon Peter also essentially says in his epistles after decades of thoughtful meditation, "Jesus Alone saves, not you nor me." Paul recites from the Psalms, saved or not, the state of credit-worthiness of humans is thus:"Jesus Saves!" (where God-Incarnate bearing the title "Son" and "Jesus" IS God's Word Personified). That IS The Gospel in its shortest form!
"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Rom. 3:12 AV; echoed by DRB; my bolding for emphasis).
"Unprofitable" means that no one, including Adam and Simon Peter, have never even come up to the break-even point where amount of good equals or supercedes (and thus presumptiously cancels) the amount of evil one has been or done.
Even after salvation, the works that the saved one does will earn rewards, but they will never supersede the evil that was done before God Almighty agreed to completely forget them for the sake of His Son's Blood and agony spent for their abandonment by the Righteous Father.
So that is why the unworthy depraved oneself like me cries out, "Dear Most Reverend Father, please remember none of my acts of life, for my reverence is only for your Son and the acts He has done, those acts alone! My only hope is that Thou wilt confirm Thy Promise that He has given as The Way, The Truth, and The Absolute Never-ending Life!"
Crying out to His Father, I say, "I have nothing else to rely on but that the Word has completely changed my state of mind, that Thou Wilt undertake the ownership of myself and my sins by Him as Thou hast promised! Do to me what Thou Wilt."
And now I KNOW, that He is the One Faithful, to restore to fullness of fellowship in Him.
Just a reflection on the topic in view, my Brother.
So good to have you ‘at it again’. God bless you. Merciful Father never gives up on His children. “Raise up a child int he way that they should go and when they are older they will not depart from it.”
Early deliverance from Purgatory?
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