Posted on 05/22/2021 1:46:25 AM PDT by Cronos
The Beloved Disciple.
20 Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved, the one who had also reclined upon his chest during the supper and had said, “Master, who is the one who will betray you?”
21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about him?”
22 Jesus said to him, “What if I want him to remain until I come? What concern is it of yours? You follow me.”
23 [b]So the word spread among the brothers that that disciple would not die. But Jesus had not told him that he would not die, just “What if I want him to remain until I come? [What concern is it of yours?]”
a. 21:22 Until I come: a reference to the parousia.
in Matt 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved - This is apocalyptic language exactly referring to Isaiah 13:10-13 The stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light... I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place" - Jesus is foretelling the overthrow of nero and the Sanhedrin. He draws a parallel between the shaking of Babylon and the shaking of Jerusalem (and that's the basis of John's vision in the book of revelations)
This is also reflected in Haggai 2:6-7 Thus says that Lord of hosts: Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land; and I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come in, and I will fill this house with splendor, says the Lord of hosts
This splendor is Christ and the house is the Church. The Sanhedrin was uprooted forever, never to be validly re-established again.
Now to Matt 24:30-31 Then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds on heaven with power and great glory; and He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other -- and on reading this with Daniel we have
3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star 20 resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, 21 [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner 22 [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, 23 began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus [for he was then our procurator] asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.
Jesus told his disciples in Matt 16:27-28
]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.They SAW Him coming in His kingdom - tied to the fact the "he will repay every man for what he has done" -- this is the judgement of the Sanhedrin of 33 AD
28 [b]Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Sounds like someone is really worried about being left behind.
Definitely agree there is no early rapture. I thi k a lot of people cling to that out of fear
After seeing the results of others’ interpretations of end-times prophesy over my lifetime, my philosophy is “We’ll see when we see”.
..here we go again...
Pre-Tribulational Rapture Questions
Boy, I’m having trouble understanding the pre-tribulational rapture. So, if you are a pre-tribber, I just have a few questions that maybe you can answer. I hope you won’t just let your mind gloss over these questions:
1. How can Jesus come BEFORE the tribulation when Matthew 24:29-34 says the Second Coming (and the gathering of the elect and the trumpet call) all occur AFTER the tribulation (“immediately after the tribulation. . .” v. 29)? Doesn’t this clearly mean that the rapture would also happen AFTER the tribulation also, since the rapture and second coming happen together per 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?
2. How is it that the rapture means removal of living people from earth when nowhere in Scripture is there a promise that people would be removed from earth specifically TO AVOID TRIBULATION? If Jesus is going to rapture the church out of the world, why does He pray for the exact opposite—that the church would NOT be taken out of the world (John 17:15)? How can the rapture mean removal from earth when Jesus taught that his followers could avoid the tribulation by fleeing to mountains outside of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:16)?
3. How can a 7-year tribulation be correct: (a) when “seven years” is not found in Revelation? (b) when you can’t find “the first 3.5 years” and “the second 3.5 years” either and have to ASSUME its appearance in Daniel or Revelation to make it fit the theory? (c) and the word “antichrist” is not found in Revelation, having to rely on your presuppositions to find it there?
4. How can these things be thousands of year later (a) when Revelation is about things that “must shortly take place” (Revelation 1:1; 22:6) and the “time was near” (Revelation 1:3; 22:10)? (b) when Jesus said that the tribulation would fall upon those in his generation (Matthew 24:9, 21, 29, 34)? Isn’t every time the phrase “this generation” used in the New Testament outside of the Oliver Discourse, the meaning is clearly those living in the first century (Matthew 11:16; 12:38-45; 23:36; Mark 8:12; 8:38-9:1; Luke 7:31; 11:29-32, 49-51; 17:25). (c) when Jesus also told his disciples, “In the world you have tribulation” (John 16:33)? (d) when Paul said they had to go through tribulation in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (Acts 14:22), and (e) when John insisted that he was already in the tribulation (Revelation 1:9; 2:9)?
5. How can Daniel’s 70 weeks be future when the 70 weeks ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple―and when the “power of the holy people would be shattered” and “the burnt offering taken away” (Daniel 9:26-27; 12:7, 11)? Didn’t this happen in AD 70?
6. How do you get a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9 when there is NO mention of a postponement of the 70th week? Aren’t you forcing your preconceptions into the text?
7. How could the second coming be still future when Jesus said in numerous places that He would return while some living in the first century were still alive (Matthew 10:23; 16:27-28; 24:34; 26:64)?
8. If the Great Tribulation was to be global, why do Jesus and Peter compare it to Sodom―which was clearly a local event (Luke 17:25-32; 2 Peter 2:5-9)?
9. Do you believe that two-thirds of the Jews will be slaughtered in the tribulation? If so, how can you call yourself pro-Israel? Isn’t this teaching based almost entirely on one verse—Zechariah 13:8—yet the New Testament places the previous verse (13:7) squarely in the time of Christ? And the next chapter ties it to the destruction of Jerusalem, also in the first century (14:2, 11)
10. Is eschatology so confusing that God would have us bounce around between places (hades, heaven, earth, new heaven and new earth, heaven again? Wouldn’t you want to stay in heaven when you get there?
John 21
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
We know that the testimony of the "disciple Jesus loved [following]" is true, because he repeated Jesus' words. He did not go running off to repeat embellished fake news. That would be the disciples who would betray him -- to betray Jesus, the truth.
"If I will that he tarry till I come" ~ Jesus, verse 22
"If I will that he tarry till I come" ~ John, verse 23
John received the Revelation (discovery) of Jesus Christ -- he who loves the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
"John" ended up on some obscure island called Patmos, a place name "of uncertain derivation"...
Revelation 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Perhaps there was a simple explanation:
Proverbs 21:9
It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.
Proverbs 25:24
It is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman and in a wide house.
There's actually one letter difference between those verses as written. It's the "to"/infinitive preposition, the prefix letter lamed. It's on the verb in 21:9 but not on the verb in 25:24. I suppose people could argue, but then there would be the irony of brawling over a Biblical verb form (conjugation) that is spelled the same as the "Sabbath" day of rest.
An excellent, coordinated example is given on that link. It's a language site, not Theologyville, yet there's even a video included. I've used the site extensively for years and it's the first time I've seen that.
Ha-ir asher badad yoshevet.The city that stands alone. Naomi Shemer "Jerusalem of Gold"
I like how these last verses of the Gospel accounts connect to the Book of Acts, of Luke addressing the "friend of God" which is a description of Abraham, lit. God's love in the Hebrew. Mentioned at James 2:23.
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
I suppose that would include the ones who betray him. Depends upon what people do with the information they receive.
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Zechariah 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
28 [b]Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
"Taste" is a metaphor on its face. To taste is to experience a small sample. There's even an ancient tradition involving death and a 1:60 ratio.
The Talmud and Midrash state: "Fire is 1/60 of hell, honey is 1/60 of the manna, Shabbat is 1/60 of the World to Come, sleep is 1/60 of death, and dreams are 1/60 of prophecy. Dreams are the buds of prophecy."
The same is true today, as there are some here who will not sleep until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. It's the simple meaning.
rest
From Middle English rest, reste, from Old English rest, ræst (rest, quiet, freedom from toil, repose, sleep, resting-place, a bed, couch, grave)...
I/we etc. will not rest until...
used for emphasizing that you will not stop until you have achieved your goal
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/i-we-etc-will-not-rest-until
(There's a related Biblical example at Ruth 3:18.)
😎
// “Taste” is a metaphor on its face. To taste is to experience a small sample. There’s even an ancient tradition involving death and a 1:60 ratio.
The Talmud and Midrash state: “Fire is 1/60 of hell, honey is 1/60 of the manna, Shabbat is 1/60 of the World to Come, sleep is 1/60 of death, and dreams are 1/60 of prophecy. Dreams are the buds of prophecy.” //
What an interesting concept!
It’s familiar because of similar expressions “I got a little taste of Heaven” - a tangible realization that is invariably followed by “Thank You, God, for ...{insert “person, view, flower, solution to problem, whatever}!” That’s how we teach our children or others to *recognize* & appreciate God’s Work; to praise Him.
Also, h’mm, the various feelings of weight we can feel in worldly challenges. >Interesting, too, to thing that what’s perceived as crushing to one would be pffft! nothing to, say, Donald Trump with his mad skillz. Iow, relative; in the eye of the beholder >> a vapor, ephemeral human perceptions inaccurately sensed because we -KNOW- God can work thru any tangles ... h’mm.
Interesting.
Was the disciple, possibly Judas?
No, it’s pretty clear from the text that this was John, the writer of the gospel.
20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”
John had leant against Jesus at the Last Supper and asked Jesus who was going to betray Jesus.
Not wild speculation. The Gospel was clear that Jesus said that John would survive until Jesus returned in glory.
this was evident at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
the kingdom of Heaven - Christianity - was triumphant at that time
John saw his vision, his apocalypse in 64 AD - before the destruction of the temple (As it is clear that he wrote to his fellow Christians who were suffering the great tribulation
Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Zechariah speaks of the NEW Jerusalem - the Church with the NEW temple - Jesus Christ Himself.
Just as in the days of Noah, who were taken away? The condemned. The ones left behind to survive were the godly ones of Noah’s family
Clear as mud.
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