Posted on 12/13/2020 9:04:57 AM PST by Roman_War_Criminal
Never heard of him, but after 2 minutes he’s got my attention.
Thank you!
We tend to think the church will be strong and relevant reaching the world when the end suddenly comes. There could be years between the next to the last person who accepts christ.... and the last one.
We’ve exchanged views, before, and you know my position, so I won’t revisit that discussion. However, your not-Ezekiel status might prompt greater usage of qualifying language: “My study of these matters leads me to believe...”
I think that eschatology is hot enough as a topic that we all ought to exhibit great reticence to go about unequivocally declaring anything other than the Scriptures, themselves. Our particular ideas would be more graciously, and I dare say more appealingly, couched in the clear language of opinion.
Winsom argumens win some arguments.
Will those who have already had COVID19 and recovered still be required to get the vaccine? Shouldn’t they be immune anyway?
I agree with you that receiving a vaccine would not logically be seen as taking the “mark of the Beast”. Like you said, it will be a conscious action that means the taker is willingly worshipping the Beast and pledging fealty to him. It will be something far more sinister than getting a vaccination.
Who are the redeemed? ... Scripture tells us, and also tells us where they will be when the Lamb takes the seven sealed scroll to open it.
“...also tells us where they will be when the Lamb takes the seven sealed scroll to open it.”
That is a matter of opinion.
It’s your opinion that the 24 Elders in Rev. 5 are a symbolic representation — a category identity, as you call it — of all the Redeemed.
My opinion, basis John NOT indicating that the Elders are to be understood as symbolic, and basis who does the singing in the following verses, is that the 24 Elders are not symbols, or stand-ins, but 24 individual persons.
Certainly, we will find out their identities at some point, by which juncture it’ll be a moot point, and in the meantime it’s not detracting from our Salvation to bandy the ideas about.
So, we ought to be gracious at all points in doing so, and always ready to sever ties to our opinions if God does things different than we expect; taking sober note of “those who are perishing because they refuse to receive the love of the Truth” that we NOT permit stubbornness to land ourselves among them.
The mark of the beast will require worship of the antichrist. No one will be able to take it unknowingly. So far this vaccine is not it and no one should be afraid to take the vaccine for this reason. God would not eternally damn someone without making very clear the choice they were making. I agree however that time is short
I totally agree. But for those who think taking a vaccine is the mark of the beast, how is that worship?
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
It’s not. the vaccine is not the mark if the beast. It may be a dress rehearsal but it is not the mark
The redeemed have been washed in the Blood of The Lamb and He has made us what?...
Of a certainty, by the blood of Christ we are made kings and priests to God; it’s indisputable. Amen, amen, amen! What I am looking for is the plain-stated textual link to the 24 Elders, though.
It seems plain that the implication you’re trying to make is that the 24 Elders stand for us, by virtue of us being made kings and priests to God, but without an explicit text making that same assertion, we go beyond what is written, and that is verboten.
When things in Revelation stand for other things, John the Revelator tells us so; seven lampstands standing for the sevenfold Spirit of God, etc. So far as I can see in the text, John makes no such statement about the 24 Elders, and Rev. 1:6 doesn’t confirm it. Is there a text elsewhere that makes the linkage clear?
You will not see what you have chosen to not see. Like a carp out of water, you are flipping and flopping, back and forth, first the scenes in Revelation are metaphorical then they are expected to be taken as real views without symbolism. What you do not want connected you will refuse to see as connected.
“...first the scenes in Revelation are metaphorical then they are expected to be taken as real views without symbolism.”
You are too kind, but it’s just not so.
My observation is that when John introduces something that is to be understood as a symbol, he says so in plain language except when it’s unmistakably Jesus; “one like a son of man,” or “one like a lamb that had been slain.”
John, introducing the 24 Elders, makes no direct, declaratory statement about them being symbolic, so I don’t feel at liberty to claim that they are. No “flopping back and forth” about it.
I apologize that it seems to rankle you, but when it comes to claims that scripture says this or that, I’m something of a stickler for expecting to see the Scripture state as much plainly in its own behalf. There is a hermeneutical axiom to the effect that, “When the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense.” The inverse is also sound practice: “Absent a plain sense that makes sense, seek a sense that does.”
I’m not a stick in the mud; I’m happy entertaining a hypothetical, but I won’t elevate it to the status of a firm conclusion without clear scriptural support. That could be a single text, or it could be a clearly-linked synthesis of texts, but I must insist that it be clear.
When David delegated the four and twenty elders to serve in the Temple, he was referring to the positions to be filled by families numbering far more than twenty-four. Keep flipping and flopping, you might find water!
Yes, of course. There were ultimately some 4000 musicians and singers taking care of worship at the Tabernacle. Where is the specific scriptural link between those chosen by the 24 lots in 1 Chron. 25 and the 24 Elders of Revelation 4?
Is it your claim that there’s 24 lots cast choosing 12 men from 24 families, and — oh, hey, look — 24 Elders, so they must be connected?
John introduces the Elders in Rev. 4; the same chapter where he describes the four living creatures. He makes no comment about any of them symbolizing anything. By stark contrast, in v.5 he mentions 7 Lamps burning before The Throne, and takes care to tell us they represent the Seven Spirits (or Seven-fold Spirit) of God.
So, the Throne and the One Who sits on it, the Elders, and the four creatures he introduces as being exactly what he sees them to be.
But the Lamps he tells us are symbolic.
He’s so clear about it that I cannot fathom John would here in this same chapter, upon their first mention, fail to also note that the Elders are symbolic. Since he make no such claim, who am I to presume myself possessed of greater revelation than he had, and declare that they’re symbolic?
I refuse to go there without John’s confirmation.
“I cannot fathom”... are you looking for an escape clause to avoid humbling yourself before the Lord Christ, to follow the simple ABCs of salvation? Or are you such an ‘intellectual’ that faith cannot stand without your approved proofs upon which to trust your immortal soul? Perhaps you would enjoy exchanging with CRONOS. He’s a Preterist and you could have lots of debate. I’ll ping him for you.
What are you talking about?
This isn’t a matter of salvation; it’s a matter of whether or not certain scriptural texts give support to a given claim.
You made a claim.
You’ve cited scripture in support of it, but haven’t explained what details in the cited texts lend support to your claim.
I don’t begrudge you your claim.
I’m simply asking for a clear explanation.
If you will not explain it clearly, why ought I believe it?
I am not so gauche as to infer that you cannot explain, but remain mystified as to why you haven’t.
Yet, rather than explain your argument, you have become insulting.
But I say to you, whoever says to his brother “You fool!” is in danger of Hellfire. Just...don’t.
You have implied that 24 families David chose by lot to serve in the Temple are connected to the 24 Elders introduced in Revelation 4.
Great.
I merely asked that you explain that connection; it’s not at all plain, and John offers no comment on the matter.
You have further claimed that these 24 appointed families are analogou, now, to all the Redeemed in Christ, and that the 24 Elders are the symbolic embodiment of them all.
Wonderful.
Please, do explain how this is known to be so, because John — who typically tells the reader when something is symbolic — does NOT say the 24 Elders are symbolic.
Nice try but I did not say this is a matter of salvation. No reason to continue discussion with someone who is deceitful. Bye bye
You point-blank asked me “... are you looking for an escape clause to avoid humbling yourself before the Lord Christ, to follow the simple ABCs of salvation?”
How am I to understand that question any OTHER way than you think it’s an issue of salvation?
Oh, and do please explain how I am “deceitful” when I’ve been primarily ASKING you to simply explain a couple of things more fully.
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