Societal Characteristics of the Last Days: Part 1

RR ^ | 11/28/20 | Mark A. Beck

[SouthernClaire]

You’re still wrong. You have to hold your position because you are Catholic. I get it.

[Cronos]

No, I’m not wrong - as historically and Biblically we see that
1. Paul’s commission was ALSO to the Israelites “Acts 9:15 “15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for this man is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before Gentiles, kings, and Israelites”

2. Thomas, Thaddeus, Peter and Bartholomew all preached to and converted gentiles.

Sorry, but the historical and biblical facts show that multiple apostles preached to and converted gentiles and that there was never a separate gentile church - only ONE body of Christ, one Church

[SouthernClaire]

You miss my point entirely, but carry on.

I can’t help you to see what you don’t want to see.

I’ll leave you to consider your own FR home page:

“Christianity started out as a Jewish sect.

· Jesus was a Jew.

· The God of the Bible is the God of the Torah (the Great I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob).

· All of his apostles were Jews.

· All of the protagonists of the Bible are Jews.

· Jesus claimed to be the Jewish Messiah.

· Jesus’ teachings are builds upon Jewish teachings.

· For Christians, Jesus was the fulfilled Old Testament prophecy.

“Everything that happened in the Gospels happens in Jewish lands (albeit under Roman occupation at that time).
For Christians, the “Holy Land” is in Israel.
The earliest Christians were Jews.
The first Christian Church was founded in Jerusalem.
Important days of the Christian calendar coincide with important dates in the Jewish calendar (e.g. Jesus’ crucifixion and Passover).
There is a sizeable denomination of Christian Jews who retain their Jewish customs.
As we speak, Christians and Christian-majority countries have a great relationship with the modern state of Israel.
Christian Eschatology foresees a returning Jesus with the hosts of Heaven, landing in Jerusalem and fighting for Jerusalem.”

Pay close attention to the following words of yours:

“There is a sizeable denomination of Christian Jews who retain their Jewish customs.”

Perhaps you can make yourself understand by using your own words.

Best of luck.

[SouthernClaire]

And what is this all about:

“presently no screen name satan says I/my minions can deceive

“Elsie: So much for the healiung power of Jesus..”

[Cronos]

First

1. This is plainly there for all to see that
a. biblically Paul was sent to Jews as well as gentiles
b. gentiles were converted by Peter as well as Paul

2. this is plainly there for all to see that
a. historically Bartholomew, Thaddeus and Thomas all converted gentiles

[Cronos]

Second

Christianity started out as a Jewish sect — but remember that the “Jews” also converted people to Judaism. The Edomites were forcibly converted to Judaism in the century before Christ.

[Cronos]

Thirdly

Jesus did not claim to be only the Jewish Messiah i.e. the Jewish concept of the Messiah as a warlord - He claimed to be and He is God’s Messiah - the savior of the world.

The thing that you claim there is a separate “Jewish Messiah” is the misreading of the OT and the Pharisee and Zealot errors that they believed they would have a Warlord Messiah — as they thought Barabbas or Bar Kochkba or Judas the Galilean was.

Jesus came as a shock to the Pharisees, but He was the only Messiah - both for Jews and for Gentiles.

[Cronos]

Fourthly

You keep saying “Jewish teachings” - but these are God’s teachings and they spread from

First - a man (Abraham)
Second - a family (Jacob’s)
Third - a nation
Fourth - to the world

God took in gentiles in the OT - as Ruth, Beersheba etc. and note that these are in David’s and Jesus’ matrilineal line.

The gentiles were grafted in to the family of God, added to the family of God such that now we are ALL Israel.

“The first Christian Church was founded in Jerusalem.” —> the first “Christian” church was founded in Damascus - prior to that, in Jerusalem they were called followers of “The Way”

“Important days of the Christian calendar coincide with important dates in the Jewish calendar (e.g. Jesus’ crucifixion and Passover).” —> naturally, because Christianity is a continuation of 2nd temple Judaism where Judaism is now the entire family of believers in Jesus.

“There is a sizeable denomination of Christian Jews who retain their Jewish customs.” —> Nope, the Jewish customs if they were slavishly following the Law that was fulfilled by Jesus is not retained. The Messianic Jews are a new Christian movement that has ethnic Jews and tries to retain elements of the Law despite this being against what Christ said.

“As we speak, Christians and Christian-majority countries have a great relationship with the modern state of Israel.”
—> Modern day Israel calls itself a secular state of the Jewish people - it see’s itself more in ethnic terms than religious.

The Modern state of Israel is a modern state in every sense of the term.

“Christian Eschatology foresees a returning Jesus with the hosts of Heaven, landing in Jerusalem and fighting for Jerusalem” —> err.. no - what are you talking about?

[SouthernClaire]

Who are the “remnant,” Cronos?

[Cronos]

There are and have been multiple remnants

Here are just a few of the many examples that can be found in Scripture:

The tribes of Judah and Levi - There were twelve tribes in Israel, but ten of them (the Ten Lost Tribes) were lost in the Assyrian conquest of the Northern Kingdom of Israel in 721 B.C. The prophets had warned the Northern Kingdom of its wickedness, but they refused to repent, and the foretold destruction came to pass. Those who did not die in the war were deported and assimilated into the peoples around them. Only a remnant, the tribes of Judah and Levi, survived in the Southern Kingdom of Judah.

A remnant of Judah – Judah also grew wicked and prophets warned of its destruction. The Babylonians then destroyed Judah, and Jerusalem with it, in 587 B.C. They deported the survivors to Babylon. Eighty years later, the Persians conquered the Babylonians and allowed the Jewish people to return to the Promised Land. Only a remnant went back, however; most chose to stay in the Diaspora, preferring Babylon to the land promised by God.

Gideon’s army – Gideon had an army of 30,000 and faced the Midianite army of 60,000, yet God told him that his army was too large, and he should send home any soldiers who were afraid. So, Gideon told the soldiers that if they didn’t think they were up for this battle they could leave; 20,000 left. With Gideon’s army down to only 10,000, God said to him that his army was still too big and that he should observe the men as they drank from a nearby stream. Three hundred of them lapped up the water with their tongues like dogs! God told Gideon let all the others go home. Gideon won that day with those 300 men whom the Lord had chosen. God thinned His ranks and chose only a remnant as His true soldiers (cfJudges 6 and 7).

Jesus and large crowds – Some of Jesus’ most difficult sayings came when there was a large crowd present: He taught against divorce (Matt 5 and 19, Mark 10); He declared that no one could be His disciple unless he renounced his possessions, took up his cross, and followed Him (e.g., Luke 14); He taught on the Eucharist, causing many to leave and no longer walk in His company (Jn 6).

The narrow road to salvation – Jesus lamented that the road to destruction is wide and many are on it, while the road to salvation is narrow and only a few find it (cf Mat 7:13-14). Yes, only a few, a remnant.

here is what this remnant will actually look like:

“The future of the Church, once again as always, will be reshaped by saints, by men, that is, whose minds probe deeper than the slogans of the day, who see more than others see, because their lives embrace a wider reality. Unselfishness, which makes men free, is attained only through the patience of small daily acts of self-denial (…) In faith and prayer she[the Church] will again recognize the sacraments as the worship of God and not as a subject for liturgical scholarship. The Church will be a more spiritual Church, not presuming upon a political mandate, flirting as little with the Left as with the Right. It will be hard going for the Church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek.”

[SouthernClaire]

Ok, then. If that’s what you really believe, it’s your business. You know I don’t buy it for a second.

Please don’t ping me anymore. Nothing personal, but it’s a waste of time as I won’t be convincing you and you won’t be convincing me. And we are worlds apart in belief.

Thanks, and may God bless you and yours.

SC

[Sirius Lee]

Amen!

[Cronos]

One last point

The Kingdom of Christ is different from the kingdoms of the earth and their splendor, which Satan parades before him during the temptations in the desert.

At the culmination of Jesus’ trial, Pilate presents the people with a choice between Jesus and Barabbas. One of the two will be released. But who was Barabbas? It is usually the words of John’s Gospel that come to mind here: “Barabbas was a robber” (Jn 18:40). But the Greek word for “robber” had acquired a specific meaning in the political situation that obtained at the time in Palestine. It had become a synonym for “resistance fighter.” Barabbas had taken part in an uprising (cf. Mk 15:7), and furthermore—in that context—had been accused of murder (cf. Lk 23:19, 25). When Matthew remarks that Barabbas was “a notorious prisoner” (Mt 27:16), this is evidence that he was one of the prominent resistance fighters, in fact probably the actual leader of that particular uprising.

In other words, Barabbas was a messianic figure. The choice of Jesus versus Barabbas is not accidental; two messiah figures, two forms of messianic belief stand in opposition. This becomes even clearer when we consider that the name Bar-Abbas means “son of the father.” This is a typically messianic appellation, the cultic name of a prominent leader of the messianic movement. The last great Jewish messianic war was fought in the year 132 by Bar-Kokhba, “son of the star.” The form of the name is the same, and it stands for the same intention.

You make tye same error in assuming there to be a different, warrior messiah for “the Jews”

[SouthernClaire]

“You keep saying “Jewish teachings” - but these are God’s teachings and they spread from”

You DO realize, don’t you, that those words came directly from your home page? They are YOUR words: · “Jesus’ teachings are builds upon Jewish teachings.” [Sic.] Take the matter up with yourself if there’s a problem with it.

Your fervent desire to be right rather than to let Scripture speak is evident. I know you’ll do the usual and fill up a ton of space with doctrinal errors and quotes which you won’t source, so ...

The floor is yours.

[Cronos]

Thanks for that -- I've edited it - Jesus's teachings are built upon 1st temple Israelite teachings.

Furthermore, this is clearly scriptural

1. Jesus was the global Messiah
2. Salvation comes first to a man, then to a family, then to a nation, then to the world
3. Modern day rabbinical Judaism (what we call Jews) are really younger than Christianity - having been formulated only in 70 AD and doctrines defined by 600 to 800 AD as seen in the Babylonian Talmud
4. Jesus was clear that the Kingdom of heaven WAS at hand 2000 years ago
5. the Kingdom is "among you" is what he said
6. And the Kingdom was inaugurated at the Pentecost in the form of the Church _- Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental, Assyrian.