Posted on 10/04/2020 3:53:29 PM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal
If you interpret the Sacred Scriptures without the gift of Faith, you interpret in vain. Human Reason should never be used as a positive rule of Faith. [it can be used as a negative rule of Faith]. In Protestantism sinful fallen reason determines what you believe. That is the crux of the matter. Catholics have the precious gift of Faith with which they effortlessly interpret and absorb the Holy Spirit inspired sacred texts.
All the tired arguments you just listed have been answered over and over again.
1. Maccabees.
2. Rev chapter 21, all of it.
3. Is it ok if we call our priests dad?
Wherever the Body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
Its all about the Eucharist, worshiping Jesus Christ in His Sacramental form. Where the Eucharist is, there you will find the true believers. There you will find the saints.
Believing on Him and receiving Him does.
John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:3-8 Jesus answered him (Nicodemus),“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Since we are forbidden to eat blood or human flesh, and that prohibition against consuming blood stands outside the law, Jesus could not have given His actual flesh and blood to His disciples to eat and command them and all others to violate His perpetual ordinance, and sin.
Then He would not have been the sinless sacrifice for our sins.
Nor did they eat the blood as Peter relates in Acts 10 that he had never eaten anything unclean.
If peter thought or understood Jesus to mean that what Jesus was offering him to eat was actually, literal flesh and blood, not only would he have refused but by his own testimony, he did refuse.
Or Peter lied to God about never having eaten anything unclean.
John 6:63 where Jesus tells His disciples this.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
He's telling them that what He just said was a metaphor and represents SPIRITUAL truth, not physical reality.
Also, He says here in that chapter you tell me to read...
John 6:53-64 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum. When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Are you going to live forever, here and now in this physical body since you here and now physically ate and drank?
After all, if you are going to take it literally that it's literal flesh and blood people are consuming, then the results must also be literal, here and now.
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Do you ever get hungry and thirsty?
If you believe that He's talking about literal eating, then the results must also be literal.
The entire weight of revelation prohibits the eating of blood. This was given before the Law, given in the Law, and reiterated after Jesus ascended.
Here are all the passages connected with it.
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”
Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”
Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.
Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.
Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:
“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
Here Jesus Himself calls the cup *the fruit of the vine*, HIS recognition that it's only wine, not blood.
Matthew 26:29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Mark 14:25 Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
Luke 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
So are you trying to tell me that Jesus is going to command people to violate His Law that's a reflection of His righteous character?
That would be Jesus commanding them to sin.
So it the eating is figurative, a symbolic remembrance, there is no conflict with the rest of Scripture.
If the eating is literal, as Catholics claim, then there is a conflict in Scripture and it's yours to explain away, how God is now contradicting Himself.
And spare me the logical fallacy of *God can do anything He wants*.
Because that is NOT true.
I have used your excellent explanation. I would add only that GOD cannot do ‘anything’ for He cannot violate His own character, and contradicting HIS own command would be just such an impossibility. Catholics appear to have forgotten that GOD know the end from the beginning so He need never contradict Himself. ‘Logical fallacy indeed!
Not only can you be saved but I take it as a good indication that you ARE saved.
Then you are being obedient to the Holy Spirit (Acts 15)
Well, I struggle daily. 😁👍 Up rather late again, I see. It’s 1:10 in the afternoon here. 🤗
To where? ... Christ is returning to this earth ... to set things 'right'... Matthew 24: Mark 13: and Luke 21 are the Words Christ gave to describe the 'signs' prior to His return ... Might call them a description of the Seals/Trumps/Vials of the book of Revelation... Christ gives not even the slightest hint He will be returning to zip anyone off this earth and then return again... it simply is not there there.
Christ says the 'first' tribulation, (the rapture doctrine teaches some will be spared), is mass deception ... taking the 'mark' is what the many will do believing they are following Jesus... because they have not 'read' with understanding the actual Words of Christ.
“The twenty four are not specific Apostles since John would be looking at his resurrected body...”
Wait. Not so fast. Being SHOWN the future, and actually BEING IN that future are two distinct things.
You may, as well, argue that they aren’t specific persons because the apostle John would have most likely been among them, and he didn’t say, “And I saw the Disciple whom Jesus Loved there on the third throne from the left.”
I’ll call it a “wait and see,” but I’m of the opinion that 12 are the sons of Jacob who became heads of the 12 Tribes of Israel, and the other 12 are the (11 + 1) Disciples of Jesus as their ranks were comprised after they replaced Judas Iscariot. We’ll see.
My greatest challenge with the whole explanation is it gets SO DEEP into the tall grass — scripture ENCOURAGES WISDOM from time to time; it never DEMANDS GENIUS. God doesn’t need to hide things deep in the fabric of scripture like the modern “Easter eggs” tucked away in some software; He’s perfectly capable of “hiding” them in the open, where they will be readily missed; breezed past by the droves who outfox themselves thinking they face the zenith of all mind puzzles. Go read “The Purloined Letter,” by Edgar Allen Poe; it drives to this very point.
So, then, let me put the matter extremely plainly:
“Now we request you, brethren, with regard to The Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and Our Gathering...”
— 2 Thess. 2:1
Here, The Coming and Our Gathering are juxtaposed in immediacy to each other by no lesser Authority than St. Paul, himself.
Being part of his second letter to them, they obviously had some confusion about his teaching in his first letter:
“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...”
— 1 Thess. 4:15-17
Paul CLEARLY sets out a defined sequence, here: an angelic shout with a trumpet with Christ coming, the dead in Christ are resurrected and taken up, and the living in Christ follow immediately.
WHICH TRUMPET? “THE LAST” one.
This same Apostle detailed this to the Church at Corinth, and we might benefit from reading over their shoulder.
“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE *LAST* TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”
— 1 Cor. 15:51-52
And there’s the sequence, again: the trumpet, the dead in Christ resurrected and taken up, then the living in Christ
There are SEVEN trumpets in Revelation, and none afterward, so “The Last Trumpet” is synonymous with “The Seventh Trumpet.”
AFTER The Seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11, but BEFORE The Bowls of wrath in Revelation 16 there are TWO HARVESTS in Revelation 14:
This is The First
“Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like A SON OF MAN, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, ‘Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.’ Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.”
— Rev. 14:14-16
The one on the cloud “like a son of man” with the crown of authority — that is Jesus Christ, and he reaps his harvest, and gathers His own to himself.
THEN there is the Second Harvest
“And another angel [different than the one who came out of the temple crying out for Jesus to put in His sickle and reap] came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. Then [yet] another angel, the one who has power over fire [YIKES, that’s ominous], came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, ‘Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.’ So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.”
— Rev 14:17-19
Then the Seven Bowls [or Vials] of The Wrath of God follow in chapter 16.
It’s just manifestly clear: Seventh [and Last] Trumpet, Resurrection of The Righteous Dead, Rapture of the Righteous Living, we’re OUTTA HERE in chapter 14, “NOT appointed for wrath” which comes in chapter 16 after our exit, and it’s all bam, bam, bam, bam, part of a rapid-fire closeout of events — like the finale of a fireworks show — part and parcel with The Day of The LORD, and he caps it with His sweeping entry in chapter 19 and makes a resounding END of it.
And I think it’s a quick ending, too. By the time the Bowls of Wrath are done, there’s NO WATER anymore, so — strictly as a practical matter, it HAS to end within three days after that or there’d be nobody to gather at Armageddon; they’d all be incapacitated, dying of thirst.
I wrote an outline-level narrative for my Profile page, to evidence how straightforward it really is.
WILL WE BE SURPRISED?? NO!
“For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. ... BUT YOU, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day.”
— 1 Thess. 5:2,4-5a
NO, we WILL NOT KNOW the day or the hour, BUT Jesus repeatedly admonished us to “watch and pray” and take note of the times and the seasons.
So, WHEN will The Day of His Coming be?
“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless The Apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed...”
— 2 Thess. 2:3
“The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.”
— Mark 13:10, Jesus speaking
For more on that, here’s a perspective:
https://joshuaproject.net/
No matter how you parse it all, though, these are momentous times. With new overtures to peace in the Middle East, we’re seeing historical landmarks coming to pass that define a new “season” in the Earth.
Yes, DO keep looking up; the figs are ripening.
Those situations were there in 64 to 70 AD, but isn't there today
Secondly, the "globalism" has been there before - in the Victorian age or even in the Soviet period with its "New world order" and "One World Government" -- in 1919-1920 the Soviets were on the verge of conquering Germany and then France, once they defeated plucky Poland (hint - the Poles stopped them)
The globalist workings don't fit "the dragon" (which is Satan), nor the beast (the empire, which hasn't existed since 1453) nor the 2nd beast like a lamb (which is the Sanhedrin of the 2nd temple which was destroyed in 70 AD)
and, I said three characters - not beasts - 1 dragon and 2 beasts in Chapters 12 and 13.
Very good, He says that the redemption is the work of God AND that we need to go to Him and continue on in John 6[41] The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [42] And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven? [43] Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves. [44] No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. [45] It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.As you clearly see the literal view of[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. [47] Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. [48] I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. [50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day
[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. [58] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. [59] This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. [60] These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.
- believe in me and you shall not thirst
along with
- "If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world."
- "Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. "
Very explicitly - believe in Jesus as Lord, GOD and Savior, repent, be baptised and eat of His body and drink of His blood.
And, more importantly, what do you read in the Bible?
the letter to the Galatians and the letter to the Romans are 100% clear about
Romans 2 5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works:[c] 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.And Galatians
5.4 "For whatsoever is born of God, overcometh the world: and this is the victory which overcometh the world, our faith." -- Not a bare, speculative, or dead faith; but a faith that worketh by charity. Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charityThis is clear that Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy.
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing
Hmmm... no - the love we have for Jesus is in my opinion distinct. Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit.
The soul only enters freely into the communion of love.
, the imperative "call no man father" does not apply to one’s biological father. It also doesn’t exclude calling one’s ancestors "father," as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."
There are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term "father" being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker.
A careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, "But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ" (Matt. 23:8–10).
although your literalist interpretation shows Jesus seemingly prohibiting the use of the term "teacher," in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7); "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28); and "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as "teachers."
So Elsie - does that mean you call no man Teacher or Doctor (That's teacher in Latin) or Rabbi?
So What Did Jesus Mean?
Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love "the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men" (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their grasping after marks of status and prestige.
He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.
Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell" (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15). We are all subject to "the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16).
Since Jesus is demonstrably using hyperbole when he says not to call anyone our father—else we would not be able to refer to our earthly fathers as such—we must read his words carefully and with sensitivity to the presence of hyperbole if we wish to understand what he is saying.
Jesus is not forbidding us to call men "fathers" who actually are such—either literally or spiritually. (See below on the apostolic example of spiritual fatherhood.) To refer to such people as fathers is only to acknowledge the truth, and Jesus is not against that.
Throughout the world, some people have been tempted to look upon religious leaders who are mere mortals as if they were an individual’s supreme source of spiritual instruction, nourishment, and protection. The tendency to turn mere men into "gurus" is worldwide.
This was also a temptation in the Jewish world of Jesus’ day, when famous rabbinical leaders, especially those who founded important schools, such as Hillel and Shammai, were highly exalted by their disciples. It is this elevation of an individual man—the formation of a "cult of personality" around him—of which Jesus is speaking when he warns against attributing to someone an undue role as master, father, or teacher.
The New Testament is filled with examples of and references to spiritual father-son and father-child relationships. Many people are not aware just how common these are, so it is worth quoting some of them here.
- Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child: "Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17); "To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1:2); "To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (2 Tim. 1:2).
- He also referred to Timothy as his son: "This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare" (1 Tim 1:18); "You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 2:1); "But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel" (Phil. 2:22).
- Paul also referred to other of his converts in this way: "To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4); "I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" (Philem. 10). None of these men were Paul’s literal, biological sons. Rather, Paul is emphasizing his spiritual fatherhood with them.
- Perhaps the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul’s statement, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
- Peter followed the same custom, referring to Mark as his son: "She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark" (1 Pet. 5:13). The apostles sometimes referred to entire churches under their care as their children. Paul writes, "Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children" (2 Cor. 12:14); and, "My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!" (Gal. 4:19).
- John said, "My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1); "No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth" (3 John 4). In fact, John also addresses men in his congregations as "fathers" (1 John 2:13–14).
And even more, just for you
Matt. 23:9 - Jesus says, "call no man father." But Protestants use this verse in an attempt to prove that it is wrong for Catholics to call priests "father." This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.
Matt. 23:8 – in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don’t Protestants call their teachers “teacher?” What about this commandment of Jesus? When Protestants say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either.
Judges 17:10; 18:19 - priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means "communicating one's nature," and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.
Eph. 3:14-15 - every family in heaven and on earth is named from the "Father." We are fathers in the Father.
Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 - elders of the Church are called "fathers." Therefore, we should ask the question, "Why don't Protestants call their pastors "father?"
1 Cor. 4:15 - Paul writes, "I became your father in Christ Jesus."
1 Cor. 4:17 - Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful "child" in the Lord.
2 Cor. 12:14 - Paul describes his role as parent over his "children" the Corinthians.
Phil. 2:22 - Paul calls Timothy's service to him as a son serves a "father."
1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders' ministry to the people like a father with his children.
1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 - Paul calls Timothy his true "child" in the faith and his son.
Titus 1:4 - Paul calls Titus his true "child" in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.
Philemon 10 - Paul says he has become the "father" of Onesimus.
Heb. 12:7,9 - emphasizes our earthly "fathers." But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).
1 Peter 5:13 - Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his "son."
1 John 2:1,13,14 - John calls the elders of the Church "fathers."
1 John 2:1,18,28; 3:18; 5:21; 3 John 4 - John calls members of the Church "children."
1 Macc. 2:65 - Mattathias the priest tells his sons that Simeon will be their "father."
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II. The Lord, Mary, the Apostles and Others Refer to Spiritual Leaders as "Fathers"
Matt. 3:9; Luke 3:8 - Jesus refers to Abraham as our "father."
Mark 11:10 - the people cried out blessed is the kingdom of our "father" David that is coming!
Luke 1:32 - God's angel says Jesus will be great and be given the throne of his "father" David.
Luke 1:55 - Mary says that He spoke to our "fathers," to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.
Luke 1:73 - Zechariah says the oath which he swore to our "father" Abraham.
Luke 16:24,30 - Jesus, in His parable about the rich man, says our "father" Abraham.
John 4:12 - the Samaritan woman asks Jesus if He is greater than our "father" Jacob.
John 7:22 - Jesus refers to the "fathers" who gave the Jews the practice of circumcision.
John 8:56 - Jesus tells the Jews your "Father" Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day.
Acts 3:13,25; 5:30 - Peter teaches that the God of our "fathers" glorified His servant Jesus and raised Him to life.
Acts 4:25 - Peter and John pray to God and refer to our "father" David.
Acts 7:11-12, 15,19,38,44-45,51-52 - Stephen refers to our "fathers" in the faith.
Acts 7:32 - Stephen calls God the God of our "fathers."
Acts 13:17,32,36; 24:14; 26:6; 28:17,25 - Paul also refers to the God of our "fathers" in the faith.
Acts 22:3 - Paul says he was educated according to the strict law of our "fathers."
Acts 22:14 - Ananias says the God of our "fathers."
Rom. 4:1 - Paul calls Abraham our "forefather."
Rom. 4:16-17 - Paul says that Abraham is the "father" of us all and the "father" of many nations.
Rom. 9:10 - Paul calls Isaac, a spiritual leader, our "forefather."
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul says that our "fathers" were all under the cloud, referring to the Old Testament spiritual leaders.
Gal. 1:14 - Paul says that he was zealous for the tradition of his "fathers."
2 Tim. 1:3 - Paul thanks God whom he serves with a clear conscience as did his "fathers" in faith.
Heb. 1:1 - the author says God spoke of old to our "fathers."
Heb. 3:9 - the Holy Spirit says that your "fathers" put me to the test.
Heb. 8:9 - God says not like the covenant that I made with their "fathers."
James 2:21 - James says was not our "father" Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac?
1 Peter 1:18 - Peter says you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your "fathers."
2 Peter 3:4 - Peter says ever since the "fathers" fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning.
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III. Other Examples Where Jesus Uses the Word "Father" When Teaching
Matt. 15:4-5; 19:19 - Jesus uses "father" when He teaches God's commandment to "Honor your father and your mother."
Mark 7:10-12; Luke 18:20 - these are more examples of Jesus using "father" when teaching about honoring our fathers and mothers.
Eph. 6:2,4 - Paul also teaches to honor your "father" and mother, and says "fathers," do not provoke your children.
Matt. 10:21; 35,37; Mark 13:12 - Jesus says "father" will deliver up his child in the last days.
Matt. 19:5; Mark 10:7,19 - Jesus says a man shall leave his "father" and mother and be joined to his wife. See also Eph. 5:31.
Matt. 19:29; Mark 10:29-30 - Jesus says whoever has left mother or "father" for His sake shall receive a hundredfold.
Matt. 21:31 - Jesus uses "father" when he teaches about the parable of the two sons and asks, "who did the will of his "father?"
Luke 6:23,26 - Jesus speaks about reward and punishment with reference to what their "fathers" did to the prophets.
Luke 11:11 - Jesus says what "father" among you will give his child a serpent when he asks for a fish.
Luke 11:47-48 - Jesus tells the lawyers they are witnesses to the deeds of their "fathers."
Luke 14:26 - Jesus says we must leave our "fathers" and mothers and come to him, or we cannot be His disciple.
Luke 15:12,17-18,20-22,27-29 - Jesus repeatedly uses "father" when teaching about the prodigal son.
Luke 16:27 - Jesus uses "father" when teaching about the rich man in purgatory.
John 6:49,58 - Jesus says your "fathers" ate the manna in the wilderness and died.
All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven
So let's make it clear -- this is NOT a distinct "place" separate from heaven and hell. It is the final stage of purification before we enter heaven. All those undergoing purgatory are getting the final scrub clean before heading to heaven. In fact they ARE heading to heaven only, not the other place Habbakuk 1:3 Your eyes are too pure to look upon wickedness, and the sight of evil you cannot endure.
and 2 Macc 12 39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs. 40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. 42 [g]Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. -- so Jews prayed and made atonement for the dead in the years before Christ.
And then we have Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26). These verses are found in the midst of the famous “Sermon on the Mount,” where our Lord teaches about heaven (vs. 20), hell (vs. 29-30), and both mortal (vs. 22) and venial sins (vs. 19), in a context that presents “the Kingdom of Heaven” as the ultimate goal (see verses 3-12). Our Lord goes on to say if you do not love your enemies, “what reward have you” (verse 46)? And he makes very clear these “rewards” are not of this world. They are “rewards from your Father who is in heaven” (6:1) or “treasures in heaven” (6:19).
I guess you missed the huge clue JESUS gave us that He is coming in the air to take us to The Father’s House (John 14). You can find that clue in Revelation 5, where the Redeemed (that’s all who have God’s seed abiding in their spirit -1 John 3:9) where the redeemed are witnesses to the opening of the seven sealed scroll, which means we are in Heaven BEFORE the Tribulation starts! Since your ORG religion does not want you believing in the Pre Tribulation Departure to the Father’s House, it is understandable that such a huge clue would zoom right over your Catholic head.
I refer you to the post to blackpacific, regarding the huge clue found in Revelation 5, the redeemed witnessing the taking of the seven sealed scroll and opening it to begin the Tribulation.
I believe he had, and was referring them to the typology so they would not be deceived regarding the Day of the Lord (the great and terrible day of the Lamb's wrath, of the time of Jacob's Troubles reference in Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah.
The scene revealed to John in the spirit, found in chapter five of The Revelation has The Redeemed from all nations, kindreds, tongues (that little clue says these are more than just Jews), those redeemed are in Heaven BEFORE the seven sealed scroll is even taken by the Lamb to be opened.
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