Posted on 10/03/2020 1:24:47 AM PDT by Cronos
Lunar dates... verify beyond any reasonable doubt that from the DAy of Atonement 1988 through the Day of Atonement 1995 is the 70th week of Daniel (This single fact is the unchallengeable proof that this book is correct and true)
(Excerpt) Read more at scribd.com ...
Look in a mirror.
Wow - the troll responds! I noticed you failed to actually answer the question.
C'mon...everyone knows that this ISN'T "your" belief system but merely another feeble attempt to cast scorn on those who DO believe in the Rapture of believers prior to the Tribulation. You've been doing it for a while now. If I am commenting on a RF thread it is because I believe we are commanded to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints. That curiously seems to bother you.
Amen! And, lest we forget, Jesus' OWN words:
Wow! The Troll boatbums responds.
So boatie, why do you jump on to orthodox threads if it doesn’t concern you?
Shouldn’t you be more concerned with your own belief system? I notice you are quite often on threads about different religions - so why not be more concerned with your own?
Painful, very painful.
Then you give a link to a poll site about what people respond to polls -- I'm guess you also believe that Biden will defeat Trump because the polls say so?
The fact is that you, daniel, roundly disagree with the Lutherans on core doctrine:
And that's just with the Lutherans.
Next, let's compare you, Daniel, and your beliefs with the Oneness Pentecostals -- Oneness theology specifically maintains that God is absolutely and indivisibly one. Oneness Pentecostals believe that Trinitarian doctrine is a "tradition of men" and neither scriptural nor a teaching of God, and cite the absence of the word "Trinity" from the Bible as one evidence of this. -- Do you believe that? If not, that's a core difference in fundamentals
Next, with Adventists -- the Adventists state that
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Those are just three cases of fundamental, core differences between just your own unique beliefs and other groups outside orthodoxy.
These are differences in fundamentals, not just in externals or in non-core beliefs.
As to the Catholics in the list, we still believe in the core fundamentals. Bishops like Francis may come and go, but in the end, the core of our beliefs are the same.
This isn’t the same between you and the (Jesus is an archangel and you gotta worship only on Saturday) Adventists or between you and oneness (”there be no Trinity”) pentecostals.
Hence your entire argument falls flat on its face, daniel.
Firstly, this dates to the 3rd century and "The 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church explained this as "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is His Body." The Catholic Church also teaches that the doctrine does not mean that everyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned in case of inculpable ignorance.
Secondly, It is also held by many historic Protestant churches. However, Protestants, Catholics and the Orthodox each have a unique ecclesiological understanding of what constitutes the Church.
Again, a long line of excerpts but no understanding and not in context
It is very clear in the very first example you gave that
Christ won for us our redemption that He freely gives to us by Grace. Justification is how we make that redemption our own. Salvation only occurs after we die and are judged. To differentiate between being saved and attain full salvation is to confuse salvation with redemption and justification.
Eph 1 [6] Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son. [7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace,
And clearly [22] And he hath subjected all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church, [23] Which is his body, and the fulness of him who is filled all in all.
Christ is the Head of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental, Assyrian) right from 33 AD
And the Church has asserted through Christ that we are saved. We are justified through our following His teaching to accept His redemption
For as 1 Peter God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. 21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God[g] for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, -- note - it's not a symbol.
Note also Jude
Keep yourselves in the love of God and wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22 On those who waver, have mercy;[l] 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; on others have mercy with fear,[m] abhorring even the outer garment stained by the flesh.-- what do you see "snatching them out of fire" as?
Romans 2 5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works:[c] 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.This is typical of your posts, Daniel - excerpts out of context
What does Paul's letter to Romans convey?
Sorry, I was planning on detailing each - but you see the point - Paul is contrasting Justification through the Law vs Christian Justification and in chapter 2 he says will repay everyone according to his works -- this is not a contradiction, as Paul clearly means that the Law will not save - Jesus saves and we are justified to that redemption THROUGH the works we do - the following of Jesus' Way
Nah, I was talking to boatie, but it hold to you too - What is your motive for talking on topics outside your faith system?
And you should be ready to expect tribulations. There is no pre-Tribulation rapture.
That is fine if people want to discuss eschatology. The problem with a pre-Trib rapture is that it denies Christ’s words that “THIS generation” - and if one reads Bertrand Russel or Muslim writings against Christianity, then they use the same re-hashed arguments as the rapturist. The athiest then says this is proof for the falseness of the religious idea and the mohammaden that this is proof that the “injil” was distorted. Both are wrong as are the rapturists on this topic
You, bramps, keep bringing up the famous “rapture” passage found in 1 Thessalonians 4.15-17 which reads:
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
This passage, when placed in the larger context of the chapter, is answering questions that Christians in Thessalonica had concerning death. What has happened to our loved ones who have died before the return of Christ to earth? What is theirs and our ultimate destiny? Paul’s answer: bodily resurrection at the return of Christ to earth! Not an escape into the sky [see appendix below!].
In this passage, Paul borrows two specific images from the Old Testament that would have been familiar to Jewish converts and Gentiles who were familiarizing themselves with the Hebrew tradition. The first of these that Paul employs in the text has to do with Moses who comes down from Mount Sinai with the Law with the great blast of the trumpet.
The second image is taken from Daniel chapter 7 where the “one like the son of man” (or “human being” or “The Human One”) and the community he represents is vindicated over the enemies of the people of God. Clouds here symbolize the power and authoritative judgement of God about the rescue of his people. This idea now seems to be applied to Christians who are facing various forms of persecution.
there is a third image in the text that comes from outside of the canonical context. This is the image of an emperor who visits a city. The people of that region would have gone out to meet him to usher him into their home in a royal procession out in the open air. This, Paul seems to apply to the church who will usher in their King into the new creation.***
Rapture, as it is popularly understood, is nowhere to be found in this “rapture” passage. Christ will return to resurrect, to purge, to heal, and to establish the eternal kingdom of God on this earth. Heaven and earth will unite like a bride and husband – for all eternity. That’s it.
The Bible teaches that when Christ comes back, it will be Good News! “‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away’” (Revelation 21.4). Surely we cannot erase judgment from the picture, but the hope is that those in Christ will be raised to eternal life and everything that is wrong with this world will be made right.
bramps This world renewed is going to be our home for eternity, and we have the opportunity to reflect that future in our present. Rapture invites us to escape this world: the last thing that Jesus would have ever taught!
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The word underlying “air” in 1 Thessalonians 4.17 is the Greek word “ἀήρ” (Strong’s: #109).
The usage of ἀήρ in the New Testament by verse:
Acts 22:23
…εἰς τὸν ἀέρ
…dust into the air,
1Co 9:26
…ὡς οὐκ ἀέρα δέρων·
…one that beateth the air:
1Co 14:9
…γὰρ εἰς ἀέρα λαλοῦντες.
…shall speak into the air.
Eph 2:2
…ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος τοῦ πνεύματος…
…power of the air, the spirit that…
1Th 4:17
…κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα καὶ οὕτως…
…the Lord in the air: and so shall…
Rev 9:2
…καὶ ὁ ἀὴρ ἐκ τοῦ…
…sun and the air were darkened by…
Rev 16:17
…ἐπὶ τὸν ἀέρα καὶ ἐξῆλθεν…
…vial into the air; and there came…
1) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air 2)the atmospheric region[1]
After surveying the above seven occurrences, it is clear that the definition is simply the area of unseen space in our atmosphere. Below, the meaning in its various usages are explained:
ἀήρ (aēr, 109), ἀέρος, ὁ, (ἄημι, ἄω, [cf. ἄνεμος, init.]), the air (particularly the lower and denser, as distinguished from the higher and rarer ὁ αἰθήρ, cf. Hom. Il. 14, 288), the atmospheric region: Acts xxii. 23; 1 Th. iv. 17; Rev. ix. 2, xvi. 17; ὁ ἄρχων τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος in Eph. ii. 2 signifies “the ruler of the powers (spirits, see ἐξουσία 4 c. ββ.) in the air”, i. e. the devil, the prince of the demons that according to Jewish opinion fill the realm of air (cf. Mey. ad loc.; [B. D. Am. ed. s. v. Air; Stuart in Bib. Sacr. for 1843, p. 139 sq.]). Sometimes indeed, ἀήρ denotes a hazy, obscure atmosphere (Hom. Il. 17, 644; 3, 381; 5, 356, etc.; Polyb. 18, 3, 7), but is nowhere quite equiv. to σκότος,— the sense which many injudiciously assign it in Eph. 1. c. ἀέρα δέρειν (cf. verberat ictibus auras, Verg. Aen. 5, 377, of pugilists who miss their aim) i. e. to contend in vain, 1 Co. ix. 26; εἰς ἀέρα λαλεῖν (verba ventis profundere, Lucr. 4, 929 (932)) “to speak into the air” i. e. without effect, used of those who speak what is not understood by the hearers, 1 Co. xiv. 9.*[2]
Although ἀήρ is not a word that is frequent in the New Testament, it is interesting to note that there is only one other word that is translated into English as “air.” The Greek οὐρανός has a different meaning when used as “air” than ἀήρ. Rather than referring to the “lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air,” it means:
1. the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
- a. the universe, the world
- b. the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
- c. the sidereal or starry heavens
2. the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings[3]
It seems that the difference between these two words will prove to be significant. The word in the 1 Thessalonians text indicates the “air” of the “lower” region as opposed to the “heavens” as οὐρανός can also be translated (heavens – 24x, heavenly – 1, heaven – 218). In other words, Paul had an option to use either of the words to talk about the “air” but he chose to use the word that refers mostly to the lower atmospheric region
I'll give you this, bramps - you definitely do NOT do this more than seldom - unlike daniel or boatbums here.
Yet you aren't innocent as the two posts show - correct? If you can criticize another faith, then you raise your heckles when that faith points out the flaws in yours??
The Millerite movement in the 1800s gave birth to the Mormons, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Adventists and the rapturists.
Why don’t you look in a mirror, metmom? Don’t you have a number of threads and posts over the years directly attacking a belief system not yours? And yet when someone points out the numerous fallacies in your pre-Trib rapturist fallacy, suddenly it is a no-go?
If I am commenting on the rapture threads or against your flawed beliefs it is because we are commanded to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints.
That curiously seems to bother you that I point out the numerous flaws in your belief system - why is that?
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