Posted on 09/07/2020 7:14:02 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
A few months back, some guy began flirting with my 19-year old daughter via her Instagram account. This is (unfortunately) pretty common, but much to my delight she does a great job with slamming the door in their face.
However, this particular guy was more persistent than usual and wouldnt back off. His tenacity led my daughter to use her excellent technical sleuthing skills to find out exactly who he was.
Turns out the guy was a married youth pastor.
My daughter found him, his church, his wife, and other details. That presented us with the dilemma of whether we should contact his church and wife and inform them of the guys problematic pastime.
The experience also led my daughter to open up to my wife and me about the continuing disappointment she has with other supposed Christians. She and my older daughter have stopped going to church because they found those in the young adult groups to be far less kind, welcoming and authentic than those in their secular college crowds.
We got story after story from her of young Christian guys going on mission trips who end up attempting to molest the girls in their group. Witnessing first-hand episodes of drug use, outlandish lying and deception and similar behaviors from their peers (and their peers parents) have both my girls thinking that people in the church cannot be trusted in any way, shape or form.
Not exactly a pick-me-up kind of tale, huh?
But wait aren't we told that Christians arent perfect, just forgiven? That if you ever find the perfect church, you shouldnt join because youll spoil it (said Billy Graham and Charles Spurgeon)?
We say these things in hopes of convincing non-Christians that they shouldnt let mistakes theyve made in their life keep them from pursuing Christianity nor expect perfection from Christians when evaluating the faith. After all, the Bible tells us we all have a sin nature that causes us to fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and that, even after being born again, the same sin nature remains active and causes us to do wrong (Rom. 7).
But what if our critics are more right than we like to admit? What if hypocrisy and a spirit that is anything but Christlike typifies the Churchs behavior these days?
Studies done by David Kinnaman and his Barna group, which you can find summarized in books like unChristian and You Lost Me, show that the best argument against Christianity isnt the problem of evil or any other apologetics-styled objection. Instead, its the lives lived out by professing Christians.
Its what caused the German philosopher Nietzsche to say, I might believe in the Redeemer if his followers looked more redeemed and Gandhi to declare: I like Christ, but I dont like the Christians. The Christians are so unlike their Christ.
We read in Scripture statements like, Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come (2 Cor. 5:17) and Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4).
If this is true, why is it that the new things and newness of life in professing Christians lives either seem completely absent or appear so seldom?
Its at this point that many church leaders throw out the church isnt perfect line in hopes of blunting the accusation. Frankly, Im tired of hearing it.
Weve gotten to the point where this excuse uses Pauls admissions of struggling with sin in Romans 7 like some kind of permission slip; it goes beyond admitting that we sin to almost justifying persistent sinful behavior. Plus, it does nothing to address the very real problem of incongruent behavior that exists between Christ and His Church.
Id like to suggest a couple of possible root causes for what Kinnaman and others observe along with some cures for the issues.
I believe the biggest source of this problem to be the fact that todays Church is 9-months pregnant with unbelievers. I say this not judgmentally, but rather because I used to be one.
Theres nothing wrong with unbelievers being in Church. But, theres everything wrong with them staying unbelievers.
So many who sit in the pews think that because they believe in God, theyre saved and safe. So, you believe in God, do you? Big deal.
The Pharisees believed in God and Jesus rhetorically asked them how they would escape the sentence of Hell (Matt. 23:33). James told his readers if thats all they possessed then they had nothing more than the demons (James 2:19).
When you combine a reluctance from the pulpit to offend audiences about the truth of their sin with nothing more than a general acknowledgement from that crowd that God exists, you have everything needed for a false faith, false assurance, and a life that in no way will live out the teachings of Christ because, simply put, it lacks the power to do so (e.g. Rom. 8:7).
Instead of services that resemble a comfy group Youtube session, the Church needs straightforward teaching that speaks the truth in love about sin in a way that makes an unbelievers conscience and soul uncomfortable to the point where they seek help. Only then will the unbeliever in the pew become a true Christian and start exhibiting the fruit and changed life that confirms a true conversion has taken place (James 2).
Lately Ive noticed a very bad trend in my own life. When frustrated or angered, in the heat of the moment, Ive started to let foul language fly.
This hasnt been something with which Ive ever really wrestled, and its bothered me greatly because Jesus said: the mouth speaks that which fills the heart (Luke 6:45). After some contemplation, I think I know whats going on.
My wife and I have been consistently streaming various drama series that, while containing good story lines and acting, are overloaded with bad language. Im convinced my new problem with expletives is related to that which Ive been constantly letting in my ear-gate.
The battle with our fallen nature is real. Paul confirms this when he says, For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please (Gal. 5:17). Ingesting a constant, bad diet through the eyes, ears, wrong relationships and actions will result in ungodly habits forming, just like the old Church proverb says:
Two natures beat within my breast
The one is foul, the one is blessed
The one I love, the one I hate.
The one I feed will dominate.
This is why were told: sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it (Gen. 4:7). Disregarding this truth and immersing oneself in the world is a recipe for disaster where Christlikeness is concerned.
Look how fast it happened to me.
The letters of Paul are full of admissions about the struggles with sin and our spiritual war. But lets not forget that the same Paul who wrote those things also wrote:
Paul didnt let the reality of Romans 7 keep him from pursuing the goal that is in front of you and me each morning: Christlikeness. In fact, Paul was so confident of his behavior that he exhorted others to mimic him.
Would you feel comfortable right now doing the same?
No, the Church isnt perfect, but if were not careful, well use that reality as a green-light to sluff off sin and before you know it, youre a married youth pastor who makes sexual advances over the Internet to 19-year old girls.
And thats one tragic place to be.
Robin Schumacher is an accomplished software executive and Christian apologist who has written many articles, authored and contributed to several Christian books, appeared on nationally syndicated radio programs, and presented at apologetic events. He holds a BS in Business, Master's in Christian apologetics and a Ph.D. in New Testament. His latest book is, A Confident Faith: Winning people to Christ with the apologetics of the Apostle Paul.
That's no different than blaming the rape victim for being raped.
It doesn't matter what message she's putting out.
HE should NOT be biting.
But he needs to take a look at the message his daughter is putting out before writing this type of long winded self absorption.
While that is worth considering, and she does need to be corrected if wrong, a married man has NO business engaging like that. He should not have gone there and if she's sending out the wrong message, he should be telling her so.
***
Care to try again without invoking a logical fallacy?
You do realize there were lots of Christian communities sprouting up in far fling areas of the Mediterranean.
Paul’s letters are among the very oldest of Christian writings. They pre-date the Gospel writings of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and especially John.
No one is saying that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the OT. It existed in its entirety centuries before Jesus was even born.
You do realize also that there were tons of writings about Jesus that developed over time. Some deemed authoritative, some deemed false, and some deemed “borderline”. The early Church scrutinized all known writings and between 200 and 350 AD settled on a group of writings largely synonymous with the 27 books that are accepted as canon today.
But to argue that the complete Bible was floating around from the earliest years after Jesus’ death is nonsense. If that were true, then the Christian community that Paul was writing to would have had no need for his letters, right? They would have already had “The Bible” as you say.
Peter recognizing Pauls writing as scripture does not imply that any old interpretation of Paul is inerrant.
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This is hilarious.
The Catholic who claims that Roman authority comes from apostolic succession is arguing that the Apostle Paul is wrong.
LOL.
***
Care to try again without invoking a logical fallacy?
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What would that logical fallacy be?
Paul’s epistles were circulating at the time he was still alive, which proves that Catholicism’s claims to giving us Scripture and relying on tradition until much later, was a complete lie fabricated by those within Catholicism who wanted to be on par with God.
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Well, of course they were circulating when he was alive. He wrote them. But there were Christians practicing PRIOR to Paul writing his letters (and prior to any Gospel writings existing).
What would that logical fallacy be?
***
Looking at the text of my post.
Looking at you.
ENGLISH, BISHOP, DO YOU READ IT!?
Now prove to me that “tradition,” specifically YOUR “tradition” is authoritative.
You made the claim; you defend it.
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And this makes Paul's writings NOT inspired by God... how?
Are you going for like an achievement or something? Trying to get the fallacy royal flush?
Paul is not the only Apostle.
Apostolic Authority comes from the Apostles acting together and agreeing, not one of them alone.
Paul is a man (like you and I). He is also prone to statements that could be erroneous if interpreted the wrong way. The Book of James addresses some of Paul’s less than stellar theological points.
Paul is not the only Apostle.
Apostolic Authority comes from the Apostles acting together and agreeing, not one of them alone.
***
...you are claiming that the Apostles taught literally the exact opposite from each other?
Is that what you’re claiming?
You seem to post memes indirect proportion to losing the argument.
Really....you’re starting to look silly now. The point I made was clear. There was a time that Christians were practicing without ANY New Testament scripture. It has nothing to do with the legitimacy of Paul’s scripture.
***
And the memes seem to be getting under your skin too.
Answer the question about why I should believe that your specific tradition is the authority I should follow instead of the actual words of the actual Apostles and the actual Lord, and I'll stop posting memes.
But until you do that, this is for you~
...you are claiming that the Apostles taught literally the exact opposite from each other?
Is that what youre claiming?
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I made this in my last point, but I’ll say it again. The Epistle of James was a rebuke of the One-and-Done Faith position that could be attributed to Paul. Here’s what Martin Luther (a famous lover of the Apostle Paul) said about the Book of James:
Therefore St James epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it.
So who is claiming that? Why did you throw that in your comments?
If that were true, then the Christian community that Paul was writing to would have had no need for his letters, right? They would have already had The Bible as you say.
They had SCRIPTURE.
It doesn't matter if it was not compiled into one handy compendium and called *The Bible*.
Scripture is authoritative by it's very nature being that it's GOD speaking to us.
It needs no other corroboration for it to be so.
Paul's letters ARE Scripture. You seem to be missing that point in its entirety.
Therefore St James epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it.
*** HAVE ANOTHER MEME!
Actually, have a two for one! First:
And next, you get your second strawman fallacy for the evening.
Making inane statements and either claiming or insinuating that they're what I believe? That's not just a logical fallacy; that's a sin.
And the memes seem to be getting under your skin too.
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Your memes are stupid. But keep posting them. I could care less.
You still can’t escape the reality that Scripture was created by the very Apostolic Tradition you deny. For the record...it is not merely a Roman Catholic tradition. It is simply a Christian Tradition. The early Church Fathers did not think of themselves as “Roman Catholics”. I am no longer a practicing Roman Catholic. I go to a Protestant church for the time being. But the idea that the very earliest Christians were having anything close to Bible/Scripture studies is ludicrous.
And...???????
Luke 24:25-27 And he said to them, O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory? And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:32 They said to each other, Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the Scriptures?
John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
Acts 17:2-3 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.
Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
2 Timothy 3:14-17 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
You do realize that all anyone needs to come to Jesus is the OT, don't you?
What do you mean *What were they practicing?*
What does what they were allegedly practicing (which I doubt you actually know) have to do with Scripture and Paul's letters being said Scripture?
Your memes are stupid. But keep posting them. I could care less.
***
I will, thanks!
After all, as Scripture says: “Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.”
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