Andy Stanley Unhitches Jesus From the Scriptures, We Don’t Believe in Resurrection Because of the Bible – Easter Message

ReformationCharlotte ^ | 4/15/2020 | Jeff Maples

[MurphsLaw]

You obviously think ancient life had some parallel to our modern times. Your statements are general and speculative- and lacking understanding what oral tradition is. (ie. Contemporary understanding of oral tradition depends not on documents—which are at best written reflections of oral traditions—but on experience gained through firsthand study of societies that depend upon oral tradition as a major means of communication and how this textless communication operates.)

Yes there were manuscripts from the scribes. Very few, and none concerning Jesus, until later, and only for a privileged few.
Jesus didn’t write anything down to begin with. Christianity was not about text, but of a new life, a new way of Worship. The Gospel writings came years later. Writings like the Didache gives us insight into those early Christians yes, Paul’s letters as well, but notice how Pual encouraged his listeners:

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

The spread of Christianity away from Jerusalem- through Galatia, Thessalonika, Asia Minor, to Rome and Europe was not accomplished through mass publication of texts – but tradition of what it meant to be and live as a Christian. Christ first, books later.

[PAR35]

I got off of Charles Stanley’s bandwagon after his double dealing about his divorce. It showed a certain lack of integrity.

[metmom]

It’s not about “tradition”.

It was through the preaching of the gospel.

And when Paul preached the gospel in the book of Acts to the Bereans, they searched the Scripture daily to see if those things were so.

It’s in Acts 17.

[MurphsLaw]

It's ALL about tradition....Apostolic Tradition as Christ commanded.... +++"19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"+++

In Berea, in the JEWISH synagogue...Paul was Preaching to observant Jews....and As you say....
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

And St. Paul, being a scholarly Jew was being fact checked by his would be Jewish converts with Jewish scripture... Not the Gospels of Christ or even the Epistles that did not even exist yet....

You can disbelieve what St. Paul believes in Tradition if you wish.....
6 "And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us."

As neither Luke nor Paul walked with Christ, they would have to rely on oral tradition for their writings..... as did all the Gospels written decades later after the Resurrection..... that definitely relied on oral tradition -ie. Parables as The Lord spoke in- and conveyed through Apostolic tradition....

Christ told us "DO THIS in memory of me"..... Not "hey guys, read my book or else..."

[smvoice]

Lol! I cannot believe you wrote that drivel regarding Luke and Paul. Have you even READ any of his epistles? He SAID he learned everything he knew from the Risen Christ, through dreams and visions from Christ. He specifically stated that he was NOT taught by man but by the Risen Christ. He went to Galatia to show Ptere, James and John what he had learned from the Risen Christ. When they perceived the GRACE that was GIVEN to HIM, they gave to him the right hand of friendship, that HE would go to the Gentiles, and THEY would continue with the Jews.

His message came solely from Christ, in visions and dreams. Unless you think He lied about it.

[ealgeone]

And if we apply the same standard to Roman Catholicism as the early believers did to Paul, by searching the scriptures daily, then we will quickly find Roman Catholicism's man-made traditions are not supported.

There is NOTHING in the New Testament that supports many of the RCC claims regarding Mary.

[metmom]

Tradition is passing down of customs through generations, like celebrating Christmas or Thanksgiving, or Easter. It’s something specific to a culture.

Oral preaching of the gospel by the apostles is NOT tradition.

Catholicism makes that claim so it can try to justify its use of so called *sacred tradition* and putting it on par with God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired Scripture.

That claim holds no water. It’s a sham.

Jesus had a lot to say about the traditions that the phariees added to Scripture and not ONE of those things is good. He condemned it all the way around. And the reason was that their tradition superseded Scripture, the same thing that Catholicism does.

Besides, if written Scripture, penned by the apostles as eye witness accounts is not good enough, then why should we trust anything the Catholic church has to say? How is word of mouth superior to a verified, written, unchanging account?

[metmom]

Cherry picking Scripture leads to error as your post so aptly shows.

[Oneanddone]

NONE of the verses you cite teach ‘unconditional eternal security’. For example, John 10:28 is taken out of context while verse 27 gets left out.

Jn 10:28 by itself tells us nothing. Verse 27 is needed to tell us who the “they” are that shall never perish. The “they” that shall never perish according to verse 27 are those who are CONDITIONALLY Christ’s sheep. Yet one cannot UNCONDITIONALLY be a sheep of Christ. One must CONDITIONALLY have a sustained hearing and following to be a sheep of Christ.

Therefore if one quits hearing and following Christ all together, then one will not be of Christ’s sheep and will no longer be of the “they” that shall never perish. The passage teaches that salvation is 100% conditional and not unconditional.

One cannot be saved if they quit hearing and following Christ. Stanley says one can quit believing and not be a disciple of Christ and yet still be saved which is totally antithetical to the gospel of Christ.

[Oneanddone]

Salvation is eternal but no verse says one has UNCONDITIONAL eternal salvation. A Christian can fall away, become an apostate therefore no longer has the promise of eternal salvation.

Jude commands the Christian to keep yourselves in the love of God which implies the Christian can fall out of God’s saving, gracious love and become lost. Both Jude and James shows the Christian does have both ability and responsibility to “keep themselves” as to not fall away.

IF eternal security were true, then Charles Stanley would be right in that one could be saved without faith and be saved while not being a disciple of Christ but Stanley’s position is completely against NT teaching

[BelleAl]

Exactly, I watched the entire sermon. His point is that the earlier followers believed because of the eyewitness accounts of Jesus written in the letters and documents that were preserved and eventually were organized with ancient Hebrew Scriptures to form the Bible. He is trying to emphasize that these are not a “once upon a time” collection of stories, but authentic in-the-era actual narratives of those who walked with Jesus, or in the case of Luke, someone who interviewed eyewitnesses and did his research.

Early followers gave their lives based on their belief in the testimonies of James (brother of Christ), and others who spent actual time with Him. We should base our belief on those same testimonies. The Bible came around 300 years later as a way to organize these. We don’t believe because the Bible tells us so, but because Matthew, Mark (writing for Peter), Luke, John, Paul, James compel us to. It’s deeper, more meaningful and more authentic to view it that way. That’s his point.

[LeonardFMason]

I disagree COMPLETELY.

You believe God gives a GIFT with a Yo-Yo string attached that comes and goes?

Verse 27: MY sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

These Sheep are those that have truly been saved. I believe those who you say “quits hearing and following Christ all together” were NEVER truly saved to begin with.

I have known folks who profess to be saved and walk and talk like devout Believers. It lasts for a time. Sometimes a long time. THEN they slowly return to their old ways in word and deed, bearing no fruit and exhibiting NO interest in the things of God. It isn’t that the QUIT hearing and following. They NEVER really believed.

If our Eternal Security is based on our efforts, not quitting, always following, being diligent, working as hard as we can, then WHY would Christ have had to die?

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

GRACE is UNMERITED and UNEARNED FAVOR - Not contingent on anything we do.

NOT OF YOURSELVES - Not contingent on ANYTHING we have done, are doing, or will do.

It is the GIFT of God - Not WAGES earned by our efforts to live the right way.

NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast - Salvation is Christ Plus NOTHING. “Sustained hearing and following” and any other effort(WORK) we do has nothing to do with Salvation and Eternal Security.

With what you believe how could you ever be confident that you have really done enough “hearing and following” to satisfy God? Some people would consider “hearing and following” completely different than other people. How do we know who is doing it right?

I’ll rest in the truth of John 3:16 and the word of the Lord Jesus Christ:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God Loved.
God Gave.
I Believe.
I’m Saved.

Be VERY careful about “adding” to the word of God concerning a part you think we have in ensuring our Eternal Security.

[JLLH]

True believers, as Scriptures state, are saved eternally. Period. They cannot “lose” what they did not “earn”. Scripture is very clear about God’s election being unconditional and irrevocable. Apostasy = those who “tasted” but were not saved (see Judas Iscariot for a prime example: sent out by Christ with the others, ate with them, witnessed the working of the Holy Spirit, knew Christ intimately, but was not saved). Once saved, NO ONE snatches them from the Father’s hand (John 10:28-29). Here are many more to that effect: https://www.openbible.info/topics/eternal_salvation

[Oneanddone]

The word apostasy means to move away from one’s place or standing. Therefore one who was “never really saved” is one who’s place or standing has never changed. Therefore an apostate is one whose standing has changed from being saved to being lost. An apostate, one who has fallen does not refer to someone who has “never been saved”.

Judas was one who was in a saved standing (Matthew 10) but fell by transgression. Again, the word ‘fell’ implies one’s position has changed. One can fall from a house and one’s position has changed from being on the house to being on the ground. One who has never been saved position does not change for one who is has always been fallen cannot fall.

John 10:27 show that being of the “them” that shall never perish is CVONDITONAL upon one being a sheep of Christ. One can be a sheep of Christ IF he CONDITIONALLY continues to hear and follow Christ. Therefore being of the “them” that shall not perish is CONDITONAL that one become and remain a sheep of Christ by continuing to hear and follow Christ. The ones that CONDIRONALLY hear and follow Christ are the ones that will not be snatched from God’s hand. Those that quit hearing and following Christ no longer qualify as one of His sheep have removed themselves from God’s hand.

[Oneanddone]

Eternal life is a promise (1 John 2:25) and one maintains the promise of eternal life as long as one keeps the necessary condition of continuing to hear and follow Christ John 10:27.

One by his own volition chooses to hear and follow Christ and one by that same volition can quit hearing and following Christ therefore will no longer be of Christ’s sheep therefore no longer of the “them’ that shall not perish.

It takes effort to continue to hear and follow Christ thereby be of His sheep. Jesus CONDITONALLY saves those that obey (hear and follow) Him, Hebrews 5:9. Not one time does the Bible say that obedience to Christ earns salvation. Yet the Bible shows that obedience (hearing and following) Christ is a necessary condition put upon the free gift of eternal life. Christ does not unconditionally, randomly save a man for no particular reason.

The “not of works” of Ephesians 2:9 refers to works of merit one might do to attempt to earn eternal life. Again, the Bible never says obedience to God’s will is a work of merit one does to attempt to earn salvation. Naaman’s disease was healed by grace, a free gift of God for God did not owe anything to Naaman. Yet for Naaman to receive the free gift of healing required that he do the obedient work of dipping in the river as God told him. Therefore Naaman’s obedient work in dipping was a necessary condition God placed upon His free gift of healing and not a work of merit done to attempt to earn God’s free gift. Likewise hearing and following Christ (obedience) is a necessary condition that must be met if one is to have the free gift of eternal life whereby the hearing and following earns nothing.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

1) the verb ‘believeth’ is present tense denoting the action must be something ongoing, sustained. Therefore if one quits believing he no longer has everlasting life for he no longer meets the condition of ‘believing’ which is necessary to having everlasting life.

2) “should not perish” is subjunctive mood which “Is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances.” This means one should not perish depending on the circumstance if one continues to believe or not. If one maintains an ongoing sustained belief he should not perish yet if one quits believing them he should perish.

3) not how the NIV perverts John 3:16 by changing the subjunctive mood (”should not”) to the indicative mood (”shall not”) to avoid the CONDITONAL fact one may or may not perish depending upon IF he conditionally keeps on believing or not.

[LeonardFMason]

ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!

With what you believe how could you ever be confident that you have really done enough “hearing and following” to satisfy God?

Some people would consider “hearing and following” completely different than other people. How do we know who is doing it right?

1 John 5:13

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

Why wouldn’t this verse include Believe on, “AND HEAR AND FOLLOW”?

I have known Believers who in the throes of dementia for years have forgotten everything and can no longer “hear and follow” Christ. In some sad cases they become vile in what they say. Is it too bad for them?

Believers are like a brand plucked from the fire - what an image that is. That’s what you are IF you’re a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ - a brand plucked from the burning, rescued from the final conflagration of God’s eternal wrath. Spared the judgment to come by God’s infinite mercy and grace you are a brand plucked from the fire.