Posted on 09/23/2019 4:56:15 PM PDT by metmom
I haven’t the time to type up a fresh response to Mr MacArthur’s decades of continued ignorance on John chapter 3, so here is some old posts dealing with the rebirth topic. A topic he can’t teach properly since he himself is a modern day Pharisee (legalizing his way out of obeying God.)
And yes, we have to obey to be saved: “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;” Heb. 5:9
The Problem with KJV Onlyism
1/28/2018, 9:23:15 PM · 192 of 377
Zuriel to MHGinTN
**John 3:5 Jesus refers to be born from the womb AND born from above ... the born of water refers directly to Nics query about entering again into the mother’s womb**
1. In that verse Jesus starts with a man. Why? Because even Nicodemus knew he was starting with a man. Nicodemas was starting with a man when asked how a man could get back in his mother’s womb.
2. There is no second example of water being mentioned in scripture for natural birth.
3. A verse that does define natural birth doesn’t mention water:
“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:13
**Matthew 28:19 does not proclaim baptism a necessity for salvation, but does emphasize baptism for making of the converts, DISCIPLES.**
Your interpretation says baptism is not important, but is kinda important. Jesus didn’t even detail the requirement of repentance in the preceding verse, but specifically detailed the command for baptism in verse 19.
**Mark 16:16 is telling: “16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Notice what did not get include for condemned if? /// The statement does not say he who is not baptized is condemned, though your mind perhaps inserted it.**
Well, you don’t believe in the Lord’s baptism being for remission of sins. That may boot you from the believer category.
But let’s word the verse to your belief: “He that believeth is saved, and should be baptized; and he that believeth not shall be damned.”
**Luke 24:47 does not mention Baptism ...**
It mentions that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name (Jesus Christ was talking there), beginning at Jerusalem. Go directly to Acts 2, culminating at verse 38.
**John 20:23 says nothing regarding Baptism ...**
The disciples were commanded to remit sins. Sounds a little more detailed than just quoting John 3:16.
In Acts 2:38, there is a comma after “Repent”, but none until after “sins”.
**Acts 2:38 See Matthew 28:19 ...**
See all the above replies.
**Acts 22:16 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized, and wash your sins away calling on His name.’… >I?I left a comma out on purpose, since the Greek had no commas and that comma can be seen as changing the meaning substantially ... calling upon Him washes your sins away, not the water of baptism.**
Nice trick,.... using some commas, but then “going Greek” to exclude a comma. But, since we are quoting from English versions, any decent English teacher is going to tell you that without a comma, you are going to need something like “while” in there.
(Also, see above Acts 2:38 no comma comment.)
The Problem with KJV Onlyism
1/28/2018, 9:56:55 PM · 193 of 377
Zuriel to MHGinTN
** 21And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you**
Well, that translation at least says that some sort of baptism saves.
The “like figure” (KJV) sounds like “like figure”; meaning “same thing”. Not “symbolizes”.
No, it’s not a bath. It’s the obedience to his command that it does remit sins, that one gains a clear conscience.
The word of God is not to fight against: it is to believe and obey.
Just go through the book of Acts and look at the urgency of water baptism. In their battered condition Paul and Silas baptized the jailer and his household:
After being removed from the jail and taken to the jailer’s house. Though battered and whipped, Paul and Silas taught the jailer and his household the word of the Lord. Then the jailer takes them out to a sufficient water supply to wash their stripes, and be baptized. Then they go back into the house and have a meal.
The eunuch must have been told the importance of baptism by Philip, for he stopped the moment he saw water in the desert.
Peter, knowing he couldn’t withstand the Lord’s command to remit sins, baptized Cornelius and his household immediately.
If you believe that Cornelius and his household were saved when they were filled with the Holy Ghost, then there was nothing for Peter to “withstand” (Acts 11:17).
Paul found that certain disciples in Ephesus didn’t know anything about the Holy Ghost, found that they needed to be rebaptized in the name of the Lord. (Paul, the fellow that folks say wasn’t sent to baptize, baptized a lot a people when you start counting).
The Problem with KJV Onlyism
1/31/2018, 8:45:25 PM · 278 of 377
Zuriel to MHGinTN
Jesus told Nicodemas:
“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
Not only does one not know where the Spirit comes from; one doesn’t know WHEN it is coming. But beside that there is a sound confirming it.
**Throughout the letters of Paul —and especially in the letter to the Romans— Paul addresses this notion of being born again, born of the Spirit, for Salvation in Christ.**
Paul is talking to people that are already born again (1:6-8; 6:3-5 “buried with him in baptism”; 8:15; 10:8; 11:30; 12:5; 13:11; 14:1; 15:30; 16:19)
In Romans 10:8 we see the believers told: “..the word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;”
Verse 9 is what they preach (in condensed form). For there is no mention of repentance, which even “faith alone” (a misused term by many) adherents admit is necessary for salvation.
Abraham, a man who went to great lengths (literally hundreds of miles), and built several altars for sacrifice, was promised descendents several times. Then, after being promised seed for possibly the fifth time, he is told to count stars. How long did he do it? The scriptures are silent. But as faithful as Abraham was, he probably gave it a go. (even counting for a few minutes was a lot less strenuous that building an altar)
Then, he was commended for his faith, in Gen. 15:6. So using Romans 4:3 in a stand alone fashion, doesn’t tell of the “faith” of Abraham fully. One needs to read his story. And the church at Rome knew his story, because they had the OT the learn of it
After the commendation, the Lord again (verse 7) promised the land to him again. Then poor Abraham makes more work for himself (sarc), by asking for some sort of proof; and ends up having to make another altar, and fighting off hungry birds. (But what an experience it was that followed!)
Amen!
Natural birth involves a woman's amniotic sac breaking. That's the water part.
If Jesus had meant baptism, he would have said baptism as He knew what it was and the term was already in use.
He would not have coulded the issue and made innuendos to *imply* baptism when He didn't mean it.
**Natural birth involves a woman’s amniotic sac breaking. That’s the water part.**
That is the tradition of men. And the 1Peter 3:20,21 use of “water” and “like figure” is a pretty strong likeness. Certainly not a “shadow of good things to come” type of comparison.
**If Jesus had meant baptism, he would have said baptism as He knew what it was and the term was already in use.**
The Pharisees were well aware of water baptism. For the Lord asked them if John’s baptism was from heaven or of men. (Likewise is Acts 2:38 from heaven or of men?)
Jesus set the water and Spirit pattern himself, showing the example of rebirth by his changed life (of course not from sin, but from obscurity, to being the voice of God, with signs and wonders following).
“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him.” Matthew 3:16
“That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with tbe Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him”. Acts 10:37,38
It’s not a *tradition of men*, it’s a common sense plain reading of the passage.
It’s really stretching to make it mean baptism. All it is is justification to claim that baptism is necessary for salvation.
Well, if baptism saves, then Jesus died for nothing. All we’d have to do is get baptized.
Plain reading?
Jesus had to promptly let the man know that he was not referring to the first birth at any time. Putting that notion to rest by saying, “That which is flesh is flesh”. In clarifying his testamony to him, he didn’t say “that which is water is flesh”.
Let’s go..., “To the saints and faithful brethern in Christ which are at Colosse...” (Col. 1:2)
“Buried with him in baptism.,.” (surely referring to water) ...”, wherein also..” (ALSO) “..ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God,...” (Spirit baptism) “...who hath raised him from the dead.” Col. 2:12
“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you of your trespasses;” Col. 2:13
And that is quite similar to what Paul told those in Rome, “beloved of God, called to be saints:...” (Rom. 1:7):
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:” Rom. 6:3-5
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