Posted on 09/06/2019 5:52:28 AM PDT by pastorbillrandles
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”( John 6: 28-29)
I have already received quite a bit of helpful feedback as a result of posting these articles. This is a subject that interests a lot of people ,(and rightfully so, for what could be more important than the nature of Salvation? ).
Several times in the 205 comments I received on Freerepublic.com, indicated that my position that it is possible to apostasize, to defect from Christ, is akin to preaching “works based salvation”.
Here are a few samples of the comments some very intelligent people have posted,
There is nothing you can do to be worthy apart from HIS imputed righteousness. There is no church attendance, prayer, communion, ritual, stations of the cross, etc. that will ever get you to heaven. You will either believe Him and what He declares, or you will not go to heaven.
Or this one,
IF we can lose our salvation, and must maintain it ourselves, then God’s word is not true- and can’t be relied upon- Christ maintains our salvation forever- one can not walk out of salvation- if we could, then our salvation is of works, our works, our maintenance- and Christ’s death on the cross for the redemption of sins was all in vain because it is not adequate to keep us in His family eternally, and contradicts these verses-There is nothing you can do to be worthy apart from HIS imputed righteousness. There is no church attendance, prayer, communion, ritual, stations of the cross, etc. that will ever get you to heaven. You will either believe Him and what He declares, or you will not go to heaven.
Both of these statements are true in and of themselves, and I believe them also, completely. The fallacy is that the writers assume that because I believe that one must continue in faith, and that salvation is an ongoing process, I must be preaching “works.
Here is another example of this;
I doubt that any of us here (including LDS folks, JWs, Baptists, Methodists, Catholic, ‘fundamentalist snake handlers or whatever) would disagree with the statement, “We are saved by grace. “What we argue over is:1. What it means 2. How it is accomplished!
Way too many Christian organizations preach:
1. Saved by Grace 2. Kept by ‘something’ with the bottom line being, “Yeah; the Lord saved you – but what are YOU now going to do to KEEP it?
Notice that the assumption is that my position is still works based. In this example they grant that I am teaching that salvation is by faith in Christ, but that I am teaching works to “Keep it”.
If there is anything the New Testament is clear on, (and even the Old Testament for that matter, it is that “By the Works of the Law no flesh shall be justified”. Over and over again this truth is amplified,
“Boasting is excluded, by what law? Of Works? Nay: but by the law of faith.Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (Romans 3:28-29)
“…If Righteousness came by the Law, Christ died in vain…” (Galatians 2:23)
Jesus dd it all, He “By himself purged our sins, and sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High…”(Hebrews 1:3) There is not a thing we can to to add to or take away our salvation. All we are required to do is to believe in Jesus, the one whom God has sent.
Why does God require faith? What is it about faith that pleases God?
First of all, there is no possibility of pride or vainglory in simple faith. We have nothing to boast of as Romans 3 tells us, anyone can believe, no matter how morally or spiritually bankrupt. Faith is likened unto looking at the bronze serpent on the pole, as Jesus reminded us in John 3,
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:14-15)
The rebels in the wilderness were dying of their own rebellion. God had sent venomous serpents to kill them for murmuring against God and Moses. But Moses interceded for them, and God gave them a way out. Moses was told to make a brass serpent and raise it up on a pole, and whoever would look up at it, would be healed and would not die.
Who couldn’t do something so simple? Look up at a symbol, of the death of death, raised up on high. Thats all?
Another reason I believe God chose faith as the means of Grace, is because where did the human race go wrong? In the Garden the serpent tempted us to quit believing that God is all wise, and good, and Righteous. This is the source of all of our pollution and corruption. We no longer believe and trust in God.
Faith is the way back. Not just nebulous faith, but an ongoing and abiding faith in the Father, and in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God in the flesh who came to save us by dying on the cross for our sins.
Having said that, it is important to note that Faith is not Works. The only work is to believe in the One whom God sent. To put it another way, ‘abiding in Christ’ is not a work of the Law, it is an exercise of saving faith. Continuing on in the faith that we started out in, based on the gospel is not a work, it is saving faith. We are saved by faith, not of works.
What is saving faith anyway? Is it a one time mental assent? Does the fact that I once ‘truly ‘ believed in the gospel qualify as saving faith?
According to the Bible, Saving faith is our response to a revelation from God, “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God…” , and is something we continue in. Scripture does not anticipate the final salvation of anyone who fails to continue in faith.
We will look into this deeper next time
In John 6:29 Jesus had the perfect time to list out all the requirements for Salvation and how to get to Heaven. His answer is marvelous and causes so much division even now.Likewise, Paul & Silas in Acts 16:31 simplified the process of Salvation to the Roman guard.My personal favorite: Romans 10:9-10 expands on it a bit more. You believe in your heart, confess with your mouth.John 3:18 John 3:36 John 6:47Romans 8 elaborates on all of this.I personally believe that anybody claiming they have to "maintain" their salvation (not one of us can live for 2 minutes without sinning) needs to go back all the way to the basics & start over. How many times did Peter sin(yes he's our favorite punching bag unfortunately)? King David? King Solomon? You? Me? What is the point of the cross then if sin will still send you to hell? How many times does the word "Believe" get mentioned when regarding Salvation during this dispensation? Oh and for whatever it's worth, I have been baptized... 👍
The whole “works” thing kinda cracks me up.
Remember that “don’t work on the sabbath” thing that the Jews still follow? Yeah, I’ve read it. Don’t do any work on the sabbath, but you can walk so far on that day, stuff like that. That’s why, on a nice summer saturday, you can see a lot of people walking around in the Seward park area of Seattle. Lot’s of orthodox Jews there.
But here’s where it cracks me up, and I’ll use a single example:
I had a VERY orthodox jewish friend in Seattle at the end of the 20th century. He said that according to their rules, you could not pick up a TV remote and turn on the TV or change channels. So a lot of people had set up elaborate timers so they could watch sports or their favorite TV shows on Saturday.
Think about that for a moment. Walking across town and back is not work, but picking up a remote IS work. My take is that it completely misses the spirit of the law and actually creates, with pure man made rules, stupid (yes, STUPID) restrictions on simple daily activities.
And this gets us to the “works” thing regarding Christianity. Are you “keeping the faith” because you are afraid that if you don’t you are not saved? Then you are doing it wrong. Are you giving a portion of your money “to the poor” so you don’t lose your salvation”? Then you are doing it wrong. Both of those things are what the bible calls “dead works”.
For me, Keeping the faith is equivalent to acknowledging that my wife is sleeping there right next to me. Everything else may enhance or detract from that relationship, but it does not change the fact that she is my wife unless one of us divorces the other. Except God isn’t gonna divorce us and I’m not gonna divorce him. In fact, I’m not sure he allows me to divorce him. He hates divorce. And I believe both parties have to agree to it in his realm.
So, All those “works” that I do are to enhance my relationship with my creator and because I believe him when he says I’ll be blessed. It’s akin to your dad teaching you how to drive, who to hang out with, what women to avoid, etc. It’s not about making sure you “stay his son”. It’s about knowing he’s teaching me to be better and live more fully. The more I do that, the better it will be for me, and the more joy I take in applying my father’s teaching.
Works done for the purpose of protecting my salvation are dead works, no matter what I do.
Ping
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.=========
9 Whosoevera is born1 of God doth not commit2 sin; for hisb seedc remaineth2 in him a: and hea can3not sin4, because hea is born5 of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Notes on superscripted indices:
1 = verb, perfect tense, passive voice, pariciple mode (adjectivial use, nominative case, singular in number, masculine gender)
2 = verb, present tense, active voice, indicative mode, 3rd person, singular
3 = verb, present tense, passive deponent, indicative mode, third person, singular
4 = verb, present tense, active voice, infinitive, 5 = verb, perfect tense, passive voice, indicative mode, third person, singular
a = adjective, nominative case, sinular, masculine gender; whichever one, referring to a human
b = pronoun, genitive case, singular, masculine gender; refers back to The God
c = noun, nominative, singular, neuter gender; generative seed, figuratively referring to the spoken or written inspired Word of God (cf. 1 Pet. 1:23)
============
Explanative rendering:
Whichever human that stands once and for all tine born (with ongoing consequences) from/by/out of The God does not constantly sin (as a habitual lifestyle) because His (The God's) generative seed (the Word of God) continually remains (as an ongoing process) in him (the Word-born person) and he (the Word-born person) is not able to constantly engage in sinning because (of the perpetual consequence that) he (the Word-born person) was once and ever remains birthed from/by/out of The God (implying that the Word-born person consists of The God;s life-giving spiritual substance).
In other words, The Spirit/Word-born person has no ability to consistently sin wilfully.
Obviously, if he/she does habitually sin, that oerson is not born of God and is not saved, no matter how many altar calss he/she has responded to, no matter how often he/she professes. He/she is a phony (= Pharisee, a hypocrite).
Thus that person is also incapable of formulating or teaching sound doctrine.
The idea is that once, in the twinkling of an eye, a person is born of the Sirit by faith in the faithfulness of Christ, That irrevocable undying faith in Christ is then imparted to that new person, thus he/she is subsequently not able to believe or consistently act otherwise.
Spiritual growth involves the development of the new habit of righteous living overcoming and finally totally conquering the habitual behavior of the old natural spirit-dead man as well as the enticements of the Devil and of the world system.
Exercising faith is not a meritorious thing for the born-again person. It is the automatic reflexive response of the new nature.
But faith is a work. Faith is dead and useless if it is not a work.
Paul says faith justifies.
James says works justify.
Since there is just one way to be saved then faith MUST be a work else the Bible contradicts itself.
Faith/belief is obedience (John 3:36) and obedience does not earn salvation but a necessary condition God has put on His free gift of salvation.
Example:
Naaman’s healing was by grace but God conditionally require Naaman first obey by dipping in the river 7 times. Naaman’s obedience did not earn God’s grace but a condition God put upon His grace.
Obedience and grace go hand in hand. In Romans 6 Paul says “God forbid” to the idea that grace alone saves. Paul goes on to say Christians are those who have died to sin, therefore because the Christian is saved by grace does not allow the Christian to impenitently, disobediently sin as he pleases.
In Rom 6:16 we each are serving one of 2 masters, we are serving either sin unto death OR obedience unto righteousness. If one is not obeying God then one is serving sin unto death.
For the Christian to NOT be serving sin unto death he MUST be obedient to God’s word. Grace is needed for those times the Christian sins against God.
So again, grace and obedience go hand in hand ..obedience is required to keep from serving sin unto death and grace is needed for those times the Christian sins.
OSAS is like the union mentality of once-hired-always-hired.
Anybody who is dependent upon and defensive of the security of a government job or a union contract has missed the entire point of freedom via personal integrity and motivation and a consistent work ethic... those alien qualities that allow certain other people to be free of the system and to ride out rough times, even employment famines.
The complaining drones tend to resent the productive worker who decides to up and quit when he's had enough nonsense, because he actually *can* move on elsewhere, having useful skills.
This is why a lot of folks are going to be stunned even horrified that they are without excuse. They understand all of this already on a visceral level though daily life experience and observation.
The Son of Man plant seeds, prunes trees, collects his harvests, fishes, hunts, tends his sheep, builds and remodels, helps out his neighbors and is generous to anyone in need, because that's just how he rolls... you following?
His visage has been so marred that he no longer resembles a man. On the plus side he can make a run to the hardware store without incident, because who's going to recognize him.
OSAS will lead many to destruction, IMHO.
~ ~ ~
James 2:14-26 New International Version (NIV)
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
The Jesus of the Bible is the quintessential anti-establishment can-do fellow who gets up before the sun to take care of the needs of his animals and knock out some chores before heading off to help and heal people. There's the guy to follow (emulate), but the simple message is the one nobody wants.
Individuality is where everyone has a unique purpose that God designed just for him or her. The Messiah's mission is to lead and show the way up and out. Your sins are forgiven, so you can get up now and go for it... no longer paralyzed so there shouldn't be a problem, unless disability is preferred.
Fancy mumbo-jumbo religious dogma is like the "nutrition" label on Little Debbie snacks that you just have to take on faith. She looks so sweet, but holy smokes...
... which is why the truth has been routed unmolested through the popular culture e.g. iconic songs, movies, traditions, and historical events. Who's looking in any of those places. No wonder nobody can locate the Ark of the Covenant.
Meanwhile, established religion is a dead-serious business reliant on total lockdown. It's like the government schools that do everything in their power to churn out automatons who are trained to be wary of deniers, because those deniers would destroy the world just by showing up.
Jesus overthrowing the tables and saying that every stone would be cast down... at some point those events were relegated to ancient history, the fault of those other experts.
The Spirit of Elohim is the Spirit of Revelation (discovery). Let there be light, and there was light! It's the simple meaning .
Discover the unknown.
Curiosity didn't kill the cat. Consensus, conformity, and complacency did.
Continuing In Faith Is Not A Work
That's right, because it's not any work at all if it is love. And it's not any work if it is fun.
Like God wouldn't know how to match people up with their dream jobs? He sees where dreams, interests and motivations lie.
If the dream is to demand a living wage, or be entitled to free stuff paid for by somebody else, well won't people be livid when EBT generational-dependency Jesus is unmasked as a fraud. Talk about missing the mark.
The real Jesus would be having fun teaching little kids how to milk a cow. So sweet.
That's right, because it's not any work at all if it is love. And it's not any work if it is fun.
~ ~ ~
John 14:12
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do...
Luke 24:46-47
...and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
~ ~ ~
Repentance and Salvation
Repentance is an essential part of salvation, requiring a turning away from the sin-ruled life to a life characterized by obedience to God. The Holy Spirit leads a person to repent, but repentance itself cannot be seen as a "good work" that adds to our salvation.
The Bible states that people are saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). However, there can be no faith in Christ without repentance and no repentance without faith. The two are inseparable.
Do MORMONs have to 'work' to be assured of entering Heaven?
What value is there in having an up-to-date Temple Recommend card??
Do you have one fproy?
John 6:25-40
25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
~ ~ ~
Let's examine John 6 more closely.
~ ~ ~
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
~ ~ ~
Was the above a "direct" answer?
Not really. He answered in a way that caused many of the other disciples to leave.
~ ~ ~
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
~ ~ ~
“This is a hard teaching." Yes it was. It requires some hard thinking, even today, to understand the meaning or purpose behind the method He used in answering their questions.
What it did do, since we have the advantage of hindsight, is to separate the "wheat" from the "chaff". And while some, maybe most, did leave, twelve stayed.
~ ~ ~
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve?...
~ ~ ~
Let's look again at 35-40:
~ ~ ~
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
...Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
~ ~ ~
Well they obviously still became hungry and thirsty from time to time while in their flesh, but once they "put on incorruption", i.e., their bodies become tranformed, the above makes perfectly sense.
~ ~ ~
1 Cor.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
~ ~ ~
Is what we've learned so far applcable to the OSAS theory. I think so. For as long as we're in the flesh, we are subject to be corrupted. Salvation is a process. The final goal is to become incorruptible.
~ ~ ~
Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
~ ~ ~
I ask myself, am I doing the Lord's will by sharing how I see all this. Or am I messing up some "process" by doing so. Then I remember these words: "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
Shabbat shalom
“Do MORMONs have to ‘work’ to be assured of entering Heaven?”
No!
Like you, we enter Heaven because Jesus Christ paid the price for us.
After getting to Heaven the Lord uses our work history to decide how much responsibility you can handle and which job you are fit to do.
Glad you emphasized this.
Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
So many religious organizations assert that they are distributing 'REAL' food and 'REAL' blood for their members to eat; claiming, "We've been doing this for a REALLY long time; therefore we MUST be doing it right."
Yet; when the populations of the folks that think they are getting ‘real’ stuff and the other guys that think they are consuming something symbolic; physicians can’t tell much difference between them.
So you publicly disavow the words of the early church leaders.
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
Which 'level' of heaven do you think YOU are going to end up on?
Celestial?
Telestial??
Terrestrial???
Joseph Fielding Smith taught...
"This earth will become a celestial kingdom when it is sanctified.
Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have to go to some other sphere which will be prepared for them.
Those who enter the telestial kingdom, likewise will have to go to some earth which is prepared for them, and there will be another place which is hell where the devil and those who are punished to go with him will dwell.
Of course, those who enter the telestial kingdom, and those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have the eternal punishment which will come to them in knowing that they might, if they had kept the commandments of the Lord, have returned to his presence as his sons and his daughters.
This will be a torment to them, and in that sense it will be hell." (Answers to Gospel Questions, v. 2, p. 210)
The entry in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism on "Damnation" essentially explains that the bottom two kingdoms of heaven are kingdoms of damnation:
"Just as there are varying degrees and types of salvation, coupled with eternal progression in some areas (D&C 76:96-98; 131:1-4), so are there varying degrees and types of damnation. In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be stopped, blocked, or limited in one's progress. Individuals are damned whenever they are prevented from reaching their full potential as children of God. Damnation is falling short of what one might have enjoyed if one had received and been faithful to the whole law of the gospel. In this sense, all who do not achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are damned, even though they are saved in some degree of glory."
“”I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him.”
Elsie, just remember it will be Brother Joseph helping you fill out the “paper work” while you wait in line to see Peter at the Pearly Gates.
“Which ‘level’ of heaven do you think YOU are going to end up on?”
The level our loving Heavenly Father finds best for me.
What will you be doing in Heaven?
Will you be happy doing it foever?
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