What Is Better, Catholic or Protestant? Francis: “Both of Them Together”

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[ebb tide]

What Is Better, Catholic or Protestant? Francis: “Both of Them Together”

The Youth Pastoral Office of Magdeburg diocese, Germany, will organize an October 2020 “ecumenical pilgrimage” for young people to Rome.

The motto of the journey is “With Luther to the Pope”. A similar trip was already taken in 2016.

The pilgrimage is co-organized by the regional Protestant State church, although the Protestants repudiate pilgrimages.

On the trip's webpage Mit-Luther-zum-Papst.de, the tour operator, Hans Höffmann, remembers what Pope Francis said to the participants of the 2016 pilgrimage when asked by a youngster: "What is better, Catholic or Protestant? Francis answered in German: "Both of them together!”

Martin Luther attended school in Magdeburg as a boy. As a preacher, he led the city to defect from the Church. Magdeburg became the first major city to publish Luther’s writings.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"By referring to His flesh and blood He was figuratively referring to His whole person. This is a figure of speech called synecdoche in which one part stands for the whole."

This point on synechdoche is a very good one, and I'm glad that you brought it up. It *is* synechdoche, because He whom we receive is not mere flesh only (muscle-meat, carne,) in the consecrated Host, not mere blood only (a fluid tissue consisting of red blood cells, lymphocytes, serum, etc) in the consecrated Wine, but the whole, entire and living Christ, Body-Blood-Soul-Divinity, whether under the appearance of bread or of wine.

That's a point I often make when I teach the Eucharist to my students, but I didn't think to use the word synechdoche, which is perfect.

As for the rest: well, he is not thinking with the Eucharistic Lord--- but it's worth discussion.

G'night now, my brother, and God bless.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

This point on synechdoche is a very good one, and I'm glad that you brought it up. It *is* synechdoche, because He whom we receive is not mere flesh only (muscle-meat, carne,) in the consecrated Host, not mere blood only (a fluid tissue consisting of red blood cells, lymphocytes, serum, etc) in the consecrated Wine, but the whole, entire and living Christ, Body-Blood-Soul-Divinity, whether under the appearance of bread or of wine.

You miss the point. You have added to what Christ said.

The figure of speech is a representation of believing in Him. Not eating Him.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

I will begin to use the phrase Rome-blind to describe those who are so indoctrinated in what Rome taught they can no longer objectively see what the Word actually says.

They look at it and see what isn't there - then teach the falsehood to others.

Having experienced snow blindness, I understand the experience all too well.

Having read your posts for years, it hit me on your last post that you are likely Rome-blind.

I don't know if there is a cure for that - other than being struck on the road to Damascus, resulting in salvation and open eyes.

There are of course other ways... but I don't advise you go down this route.

"Then the crowd there turned on Sosthenes the synagogue leader and beat him in front of the proconsul; and Gallio showed no concern whatever.

AND

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

[Mrs. Don-o]

Yes, sometimes Jesus speaks literally, and sometimes figuratively; and sometimes using an expression called synechdoche, which means he refers to a part (for instance, "Flesh") when he means a whole (His entire Being).

So figuring out which way He means a particular word or phrase (literal meaning, metaphor, or synechdoche) requires discernment.

It is a good principle to let Scripture interpret Scripture. Accordingly, we rely heavily on the accompanying and subsequent teaching and example of the Apostles in the rest of the NT.

In the issue at hand (calling someone father) we find that the Apostles, multiple times, call themselves and other men "fathers," "teachers," and "masters" or "leaders." You can see this, yourself, by simply using the BibleGateway concordance, or any concordance, and looking up the NT references.

Context is important. And in this case, the context is the frequent use of calling men "fathers", not only as biological begetters of children, but as spiritual leaders, as paternal figures/patriarchs of the faith community, and even as representing their level of seniority and authority in the congregation.

It forces the conclusion that either the Holy-Spirit-inspired authors of the NT deliberately disobeyed and contradicted the Lord in this matter (which God forbid) ---- OR that Jesus was not speaking literally about never calling any man on earth a "father" a "teacher," or a "master."

[grey_whiskers]

If it was a figure of speech, the Jews wouldn't have said in response, "This is a hard saying, who can accept it?"

And Jesus wouldn't have replied, "You think that's tough? What if you saw the Son of Man ascending where He was before?"

[grey_whiskers]

I think with regards to Jorge, it might be that you spelled Commie mole wrong. ;-)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

If it was a figure of speech, the Jews wouldn't have said in response, "This is a hard saying, who can accept it?"

Actually, they would. They were offended even by the thought of eating flesh and blood. They did not like even the figure of speech.

And Jesus wouldn't have replied, "You think that's tough? What if you saw the Son of Man ascending where He was before?"

Actually, He would. He made it clear that there were more things to come that would be very difficult to accept, including His death and resurrection and ascention.

[grey_whiskers]

You colossal doorknob.

The NEXT verse about not eating blood says, "the life is in the blood." (Leviticus 17:11 I think.)

What did Jesus say? John 6 :"Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them."

The life is in the blood. We drink the blood of Jesus, we have (His) life in us.

Duh.

Oh yeah. There's that little thing called the last supper.

Luke 22

18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Not Grape Juice, like some Protties insist.

You remain mistaken or misinformed.

[Mrs. Don-o]

The point was made in *your* reply, that Jesus uses synechdoche here: He refers to a part (flesh) in place of the whole (His whole being.)

I'm agreeing. It was synechdoche.

If it was a metaphor, as grey_whiskers pointed out, Jesus would have corrected the people when they left him, due to their extreme uneasiness that He was speaking about drinking His blood.

On a similar occasion, Nicodemus asks Jesus whether a man has to literally get into his mothers womb and be born again. Jesus explains that "no," he dosn't mean "born" in that literal way.

But when people interpret Him as meaning His blood is drink, He does not deny it, He reiterates it: My Blood is true drink. Really drink.

HE - GAR - SARX - MOU - ALETHES - ESTIN - BROSIS.
the - for - flesh - of me - TRUE - is - food.

KAI - TO - HAIMA - MOU - ALETHES - ESTIN - POSIS.
and - the - blood - of me - TRUE - is - drink.

Unlike with his "Be born again" image, he doesn't walk it back and say, "No, you don't have to climb into your mother's womb," This time he doubles down: He means it exactly as He said it. .

[grey_whiskers]

By the way, where in the Bible does it define "being born again" as "accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal savior"? /Evangelical catch phrase>

I've begun to realize that a lot of what the Protestants teach (despite the *claims* of sola scriptura is merely the teaching of men, without even holding a Council of Nicea or of Ephesus.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Rome-blindness

[Mark17]

Rome-blindness

You are correct sir. There seems to be a lot of that on this thread. A bunch of us experienced this blindness at one time. Praise God we don’t anymore. 👍😁👊

[MHGinTN]

Don’t accept the Mark of the Beast if you happen to be alive after the Bride of Christ is taken from the planet and 1/4 of humanity dies in the catastrophe which follows. Just let this old doorknob remind you at that time, DO NOT ACCEPT THE MARK when commanded to you.

[MHGinTN]

LOL, the darlness inside you is almost comical, almost. Sadly, you ignore the several passages in John 6 where Jesus tells the crowd that what God desires is to believe on Whom He has sent. Jesus repeats that, but like you the prideful seekers after signs and what they could do to earn eternal life just refused to see. So He did to them what is happening in you, He spoke of spiritual food in carnal terms (those are known as metaphors) and let them drift away in their carnal state. Enjoy your coming ride.

[boatbums]

By the way, where in the Bible does it define "being born again" as "accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal savior"? /Evangelical catch phrase> I've begun to realize that a lot of what the Protestants teach (despite the *claims* of sola scriptura is merely the teaching of men, without even holding a Council of Nicea or of Ephesus.

Seriously? As we so often need to remind folks, read the context and the whole passage:

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.” 3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” 4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” 9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony. 12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.” 22After this, Jesus and His disciples went into the Judean countryside, where He spent some time with them and baptized. 23Now John was also baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because the water was plentiful there, and people kept coming to be baptized. 24(For John had not yet been thrown into prison.) 25A dispute arose between John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the issue of ceremonial washing. 26So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Look, Rabbi, the One who was with you beyond the Jordan, the One you testified about—He is baptizing, and everyone is going to Him.” 27John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but am sent ahead of Him.’ 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom stands and listens for him, and is overjoyed to hear the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must increase; I must decrease. 31The One who comes from above is above all. The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks as one from the earth. The One who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what He has seen and heard, yet no one accepts His testimony. 33Whoever accepts His testimony has certified that God is truthful. 34For the One whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed all things in His hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3)

Some further passages:

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. (I Peter 1:23)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. (I Peter 1:3)

He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation. (James 1:18)

And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory. (Eph. 1:13,14)

Now do you see why we teach and believe that?

[Mark17]

How about John 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. The problem is, 1st Corinthians 2:14 gets in the way. “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned“ Those who are spiritually dead, can’t grasp spiritual truth. That’s just a sad fact of life. Before we received Him, and became born again in Christ, we had that same blindness. My previous spiritual blindness, was something that mystified me the most. Now, I have assurance of salvation, even if some might call it the sin of presumption. 😁👍 It’s a beautiful thing, everyone should try it. I just hope I am found worthy to be called someone’s ilk. To me, it’s a badge of honor. 👍👍👍👍

[grey_whiskers]

Just. Stop.

The phrase "accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Personal Savior" does not appear ANYWHERE in Scripture.

I wanted to establish that fact first.

Second.

I don't see any mention of that catchphrase anywhere, until the Born Again movement in the US, following the publication of Richard Nixon's former hatchet man, Chuck Colson's book Born Again, in 1976.

I conclude that the phrase is a recent man-made invention.

Recent enough, that it post-dates the Bible.

So much for Protestants following sola scriptura as they define it.

It is BECAUSE I knew the phrase didn't exist in the Bible I called you out on it by asking the question.

Incidentally, I was born again in 1976 and I've been reading the Bible daily since 1978 or 1979.

But you never bothered to ask that; you just assumed something about me which is factually untrue (that I'm a Catholic, led by fear to rote repetition of dead works, in the hopes of EARNING salvation. Nope.) The issue with Protestants, on those occasions that they go wrong, is that they quote a verse, but the doctrine they define from it, is based on not actually reading the verse; but on what their teacher or Bible Scholar tells them to think about the verse; often thumbtacking or scotch taping or piggybacking some doctrine ONTO the verse, when the doctrine is only analogous to, or roughly parallel, to the verse, rather than being contained in it.

"Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Personal Savior" (i.e., "the sinner's prayer" and "the four spiritual laws") are among them.

And they neglect other verses, too.

Like women praying with their heads covered; or not adorning themselves with fine clothes, but with good works.

1 Peter 3:4-5.

And don't even get me started on "dispensationalism."

(I've seen far, far more competition over how well women are dressed, almost as a matter of course, in Protestant churches as compared to Catholic ones.)

I think Christians of ALL denominations should pray for one another (Romans 14, read the whole thing.)

[ealgeone]

The phrase "accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Personal Savior" does not appear ANYWHERE in Scripture.

This is understandable why the Roman Catholic doesn't view Christ in this manner.

Roman Catholics have it beat into their heads that Jesus is the judgmental Savior Who appears ready to zap the Roman Catholic for every indiscretion whereas Mary is the kind, sweet mother they can run to and ask for things because her mean ol' Son won't listen to them.

It's one of the primary reasons for such Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.

It may also explain why so many Roman Catholics have fallen for the lie of the apparition regarding wearing a man-made piece of cloth to avoid the eternal fire.

However, IF one reads the Bible one begins to truly understand just how personal the relationship is with Jesus.

He died for us. Consider that. He died for us.

Consider this event regarding the death of Lazarus on how Jesus responded.

This is from John 11 for the Biblically challenged:

10“But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” 11This He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.”

Skipping down a bit...….notice what Jesus says to her regarding belief....the promise of salvation for those who believe.

*******

21Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22“Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” 23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

********

This is her profession of faith in Him in verse 27.....sounds pretty personal doesn't it?

*******

27She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”

33When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her also weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit and was troubled, 34and said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”

35Jesus wept.

38So Jesus, again being deeply moved within, came to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone was lying against it

****************************

10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 5:10-11 NASB

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another. John 15:12-17 NASB

**********************

Still wanna say He's not your personal Lord and Savior?

[ealgeone]

Well done.

[ealgeone]

You are ‘protesting’ Jorge; so what does that make you?

Now there you go again.....bringing logic into the conversation.