Posted on 07/23/2019 5:26:09 AM PDT by Cronos
I grew up in church culture. Most of what I recall from those early childhood and teenage years bring memories of good things. People genuinely taught me that loving Jesus matters more than anything else in the world. The world, after all, is corrupt and the place we truly long for is far, far away – heaven. So we are to love Jesus and hate the world.
Now, this is not hatred toward the people on earth. I did not grow up in a church culture that taught that we ought to tell outsiders how much they suck, but that this “world is not my home, I’m just a passin’ through.”
World and physicality = bad.
Jesus and spiritual bliss in a distant heaven = goal of the game.
This distinction came with a subset of beliefs about the destiny of God’s world. Eventually this planet would be destroyed and we Christians would “fly away” to heaven at the rapture of the church. Certain Christians understood the timing of the rapture as it corresponds to the book of Revelation differently than others, but no one ever denied the imminent return of Jesus to evacuate the church out of earth.
What I’ve come to realize is that the church of my youth probably had the rapture all wrong. You see, the Bible flows from Creation (Gen 1-2) to Renewed Creation (Rev 21-22). This is the narrative of Scripture. Nothing in the text (if read in its proper context) alludes to the actual complete destruction of the planet. This world’s worth to the Creator runs deep and because of this, the world as a whole ought to be intrinsically valuable to us.
Physical/earthly realities such as social injustice, violence, hunger, preventable sickness, and the destruction of nature are invitations to the church of Jesus to get our hands dirty and proclaim that this world matters (even in its broken state)! Christ will complete creation upon his return, uniting heaven and earth for the life of the age to come!
The famous “rapture” passage is found in 1 Thessalonians 4.15-17 and reads:
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
This passage, when placed in the larger context of the chapter, is answering questions that Christians in Thessalonica had concerning death. What has happened to our loved ones who have died before the return of Christ to earth? What is theirs and our ultimate destiny? Paul’s answer: bodily resurrection at the return of Christ to earth! Not an escape into the sky [see appendix below!].
In this passage, Paul borrows two specific images from the Old Testament that would have been familiar to Jewish converts and Gentiles who were familiarizing themselves with the Hebrew tradition. The first of these that Paul employs in the text has to do with Moses who comes down from Mount Sinai with the Law with the great blast of the trumpet.
The second image is taken from Daniel chapter 7 where the “one like the son of man” (or “human being” or “The Human One”) and the community he represents is vindicated over the enemies of the people of God. Clouds here symbolize the power and authoritative judgement of God about the rescue of his people. This idea now seems to be applied to Christians who are facing various forms of persecution.
Finally, there is a third image in the text that comes from outside of the canonical context. This is the image of an emperor who visits a city. The people of that region would have gone out to meet him to usher him into their home in a royal procession out in the open air. This, Paul seems to apply to the church who will usher in their King into the new creation.***
Rapture, as it is popularly understood, is nowhere to be found in this “rapture” passage. Christ will return to resurrect, to purge, to heal, and to establish the eternal kingdom of God on this earth. Heaven and earth will unite like a bride and husband – for all eternity. That’s it.
The Bible teaches that when Christ comes back, it will be Good News! “‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away’” (Revelation 21.4). Surely we cannot erase judgment from the picture, but the hope is that those in Christ will be raised to eternal life and everything that is wrong with this world will be made right.
This world renewed is going to be our home for eternity, and we have the opportunity to reflect that future in our present. Rapture invites us to escape this world: the last thing that Jesus would have ever taught! “On earth as in heaven” is what he said, not “in heaven away from the earth!” Our world’s future is hopeful. Let’s tell that story and not the escapist narratives that many of us grew up with.
[Kurt Note: This article is an adaptation from various pieces that are part of my “rapture” category.]
—————————————————————————————————
Below is a Word Study that I did based on 1 Thessalonians 4.17. What is interesting to me is how it reinforced my belief that the “rapture” as it is popularly understood (Jesus secretly returns to extract believers from earth to heaven for eternity) is completely unwarranted. If you choose to follow the logic below, you will know why 🙂
The word underlying “air” in 1 Thessalonians 4.17 is the Greek word “ἀήρ” (Strong’s: #109).
The usage of ἀήρ in the New Testament by verse:
Acts 22:23
…εἰς τὸν ἀέρ
…dust into the air,
1Co 9:26
…ὡς οὐκ ἀέρα δέρων·
…one that beateth the air:
1Co 14:9
…γὰρ εἰς ἀέρα λαλοῦντες.
…shall speak into the air.
Eph 2:2
…ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος τοῦ πνεύματος…
…power of the air, the spirit that…
1Th 4:17
…κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα καὶ οὕτως…
…the Lord in the air: and so shall…
Rev 9:2
…καὶ ὁ ἀὴρ ἐκ τοῦ…
…sun and the air were darkened by…
Rev 16:17
…ἐπὶ τὸν ἀέρα καὶ ἐξῆλθεν…
…vial into the air; and there came…
1) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air 2)the atmospheric region[1]
After surveying the above seven occurrences, it is clear that the definition is simply the area of unseen space in our atmosphere. Below, the meaning in its various usages are explained:
ἀήρ (aēr, 109), ἀέρος, ὁ, (ἄημι, ἄω, [cf. ἄνεμος, init.]), the air (particularly the lower and denser, as distinguished from the higher and rarer ὁ αἰθήρ, cf. Hom. Il. 14, 288), the atmospheric region: Acts xxii. 23; 1 Th. iv. 17; Rev. ix. 2, xvi. 17; ὁ ἄρχων τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος in Eph. ii. 2 signifies “the ruler of the powers (spirits, see ἐξουσία 4 c. ββ.) in the air”, i. e. the devil, the prince of the demons that according to Jewish opinion fill the realm of air (cf. Mey. ad loc.; [B. D. Am. ed. s. v. Air; Stuart in Bib. Sacr. for 1843, p. 139 sq.]). Sometimes indeed, ἀήρ denotes a hazy, obscure atmosphere (Hom. Il. 17, 644; 3, 381; 5, 356, etc.; Polyb. 18, 3, 7), but is nowhere quite equiv. to σκότος,— the sense which many injudiciously assign it in Eph. 1. c. ἀέρα δέρειν (cf. verberat ictibus auras, Verg. Aen. 5, 377, of pugilists who miss their aim) i. e. to contend in vain, 1 Co. ix. 26; εἰς ἀέρα λαλεῖν (verba ventis profundere, Lucr. 4, 929 (932)) “to speak into the air” i. e. without effect, used of those who speak what is not understood by the hearers, 1 Co. xiv. 9.*[2]
Although ἀήρ is not a word that is frequent in the New Testament, it is interesting to note that there is only one other word that is translated into English as “air.” The Greek οὐρανός has a different meaning when used as “air” than ἀήρ. Rather than referring to the “lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air,” it means:
1. the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
- a. the universe, the world
- b. the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
- c. the sidereal or starry heavens
2. the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings[3]
It seems that the difference between these two words will prove to be significant. The word in the 1 Thessalonians text indicates the “air” of the “lower” region as opposed to the “heavens” as οὐρανός can also be translated (heavens – 24x, heavenly – 1, heaven – 218). In other words, Paul had an option to use either of the words to talk about the “air” but he chose to use the word that refers mostly to the lower atmospheric region.
In the context of 1 Thessalonians 4.17, Paul is answering questions regarding the blessed Christian hope. What happens to Christ-followers who die before the return of the Messiah? Are they gone forever? And what about those of us who are waiting for this day? What are we to look forward to? In answer to these kinds of questions Paul describes the coming of Jesus as a moment of resurrection. Because Jesus died and rose again, his followers will someday be like him. They will have bodies that are restored to the image of Christ who is the image of God.
Paul in this passage uses mixed metaphors to communicating the reality of the final resurrection. He employs imagery from the Old Testament as well as from Roman royalty. Christ will appear in such a way that it will be like Moses when he descended down from the Mountain of Sinai. He will come with the “clouds” meaning that he will come with the power / authority of heaven like the “son of Man” in Daniel 7. When this happens all followers of Jesus will be gathered around their King and will usher him into the new heavens and new earth.
Unfortunately, the present passage of Scripture has been interpreted in several different ways; mostly indicating that the return of Christ will be a rapturous moment when God will snatch believers away from this evil world to meet him in the “air” (up in heaven) for eternity. There are several problems with this approach (too numerous to look at for this word study). The current word study exposes one of the fallacies in this interpretive scheme.
Had the Apostle wanted to communicate that Christ coming downward to take us upward was the goal of the 2nd coming, he could have chosen to use a word like οὐρανός. This word, which is interpreted as “air” on some occasions (as indicated above), would have given the impression that going to meet Christ in the “air” was a upward heavenly route. However, what this word study has discovered is that the word Paul chose to use was one that indicates the lower part of the atmosphere. Paul had a grammatical choice to make, and clearly he did not want to misguide his first century audience by making them think that being “with the Lord forever” actually meant going to heaven, away from the creation project. So, in order to keep his metaphorical devices in place without giving the wrong impression, he chose to use ἀήρ to indicate that he was not talking about escaping this world; but rather being part of its redemptive process. If the alternative word had been selected, Paul would have given us the opportunity to affirm cosmological dualism.
There is no dispute of how ἀήρ is to be translated from Greek into English among the translations. In every version that was checked (ESV, KJV, NIV, and TNIV) this word is translated as “air.”
After consulting the “Easton Bible Dictionary” we find that this word study’s findings about the meaning of the word ἀήρ is consistent and verified. It states: “The atmosphere, as opposed to the higher regions of the sky (1Th_4:17; Rev_9:2; Rev_16:17).”[4] This is also confirmed by the UBS Greek Dictionary: “air; ethereal region above the earth, space.”[5]
***N. T. Wright, “Farewell to Rapture,” Biblical Review (August 2001). http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm (accessed October, 2009).
[1]http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=109&version=nas
[2] http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/greekWordStudy.do?id=100095&greek=false
[3] http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3772&version=nas
[4] See: Easton Bible Dictionary. Available Online at: http://refbible.com/a/air.htm
[5] The Greek New Testament With Greek-English Dictionary by B. Aland (Editor), K. Aland (Editor), J. Karavidopoulos (Editor), B. M. Metzger (Editor), C. M. Martini (Editor)
You keep saying this, like you'll have the time to react--or even that the choice will be yours....
weird
There’s s huge difference between the Great Tribulation when it comes and what we face as tribulation while on earth...
“For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.”.....”Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the Lord of hosts in the day of his fierce anger.” .....”People fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” ....For these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written”.
Isaiah 13:13, Luke 21:22,Luke 21:26
These are repeated time and again throughout scripture..
Future passive verbs meaning "shall be carried away".
The Latin root for rapiemur = rapiō, rapere, rapuī, raptus
The author of this piece, Kurt Willems, is a self-described Progressive Christian.
What do Progressive Christians believe?
Oh, progressive stuff. Like this:
” I realize that the pastor is entitled to his opinion as theologically, ethically, and politically misguided as it may be. But, as biblically orthodox as this pastor believes himself to be, it is again ironic that the conservative Christian community has, for the most part, either supported or been silent about Trump’s recent racist comments, his traumatizing of children on our borders, and the fact that his xenophobic viewpoint, all of which are contrary to the message of the Bible. “
https://www.patheos.com/progressive-christian
Absolutely incorrect. Irenaeus clearly did not hold this view. He spells this out in Book V, chapter 30 of Against Heresies. Of the Anti-Christ, he says "But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is." He speaks of the Anti-Christ as a future man and thus the Apocalypse in the context (as is Book V, 30) as all future events. Hippolytus does the same.
Irenaeus goes on to say: ""But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom" (Against Heresies, book 5 chapter 30, paragraph 4). That is taken not only from Daniel, but also from Revelation 11 and elsewhere, which PROVES he did not deem it past fulfilled in 70 AD, but looked for a FUTURE fulfillment. Justin Martyr said this: ""But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then he built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare."
NOw - we can certainly debate whether or not these men were right - but what is absolutely incorrect is your statement that ALL early church fathers believed that the Book of Revelation "clearly spelt out the destruction of the harlot-city of Jerusalem." That is clealry not the case. Only only has to read what they wrote, which I have. Some of them certainly did - but it was certainly not all of them. Several of them made very clear pre-millennialist statements...like Tertullian who said: ""But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'letdown from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship is in heaven, he predicts of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld" (Against Marcion, book 3 chapter 25).
Lactantius very clearly teaches that Christ reigns for 1000 years and Satan is then loosed - then eternity (The Divine Institutes, book 7, chapter 26). It was not a symbolic Book to him, it was a real one...a literal one.
Yeah I just posted my mistake notice to Cronos. But Rapiemur is where Protestants derived “the rapture” from the Vulgate. The root being “rapio” which was the term I had tried to remember in my first posting. My bad...perhaps I was simply viewing this threat with “rapt” interest...LOL!
I find my self often “enraptured”, when observing my wife who will turn to me and say “Just why are you staring at me like that!?”
And I am Dr. Nelson W. Lee - B.S., MDiV. ThM, Th.D., Also a pastor. You can PM me to verify those credentials. I will be happy to verify them. I know a little bit about this subject. I wrote a thesis on it. My dissertation also covered part of it (but in a different aspect - more pastoral - but historical in nature - hence the knowledge of the church fathers). There are big problems with the article. Give me a PM - and we can even exchange numbers...and talk...and I can walk you through the scriptures and the early church fathers and their teachings.
“viewing this threat” HAH!
meant to say ‘viewing this thread’!
Kurt Willems @KurtWillems Jul 12
"If u think that US doesn’t have resources for asylum seekers being dehumanized at our border, then I invite u to consider our military spending. War (& global overreach) is a drain on our resources, not human need. "
Kurt also finds time to offer his opinion of American foreign policy:
"The ones who have experienced the full wrath of Empire in the US, of course, are sisters and brothers of color and indigenous persons. I have no words for their experiences because these are not my stories. But I do believe, as a person of European decent, that I am invited to follow Jesus in hearing the cries of the marginalized in this nation and beyond."
https://theologycurator.com/july-4th-kingdom-lenses/
He is a “Progressive Christian”.
https://www.patheos.com/progressive-christian
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/
“Welcome to the Progressive Christian Channel at Patheos — host to the conversations that are shaping the future of the Church, and home to the brightest voices from the mainline, progressive and emergent church. We are ministers, professors, scholars, spiritual directors, authors, artists, youth pastors, laypeople, parents and seekers, all longing to express some part of what it is to live faithfully as a Christian in today’s rapidly evolving world and religious landscape. Join our conversations on the changing church, transforming theology, spiritual practices and formation, faith and politics, social justice, the Bible, inter-faith dialogue, preaching and teaching, parenting, religion and science, books, movies and pop culture.
“Our faith is nothing if it’s not incarnate in the world. We hope the discussions we’re hosting will inspire you to be a more alive and gracious person of faith in this beautiful and broken world. Come with your convictions and your questions, and leave a comment on a blog or article that inspires or challenges you.
During the Tribulation Christians who had not heard gospel before will be ‘slaughtered in the thousands’ for their faith in Jesus Christ’... The final world dictator, the Anti-Christ, will launch a full scale worldwide attack against Jews and Christians.......THAT is in no way the Rapture - that’s a blood bath...
It’s a Time of Unrestrained Evil, Deception, Dissension, Disloyalty, Delusion, Devastation, Disasters and Death.. and I also believe the increase use of mind–altering substances such as narcotcs and hallucinogens will be associated with false religions, doubtless with the approval of the government. People will turn away from God not toward Him and from each other.
... nor is the Rapture being “raised up in consciousness” as you stated..which is New Age Spiritualism peddled allot these days.
Just as death terminates the day of grace for those who reject Christ, so the Rapture will end the day of grace ‘for those who have rejected Him’...... Those who have resisted the Gospel message will be given a “strong delusion” during the Tribulation. Second Thessalonians 2:10–11 tells us, “Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie” (KJV). According to Revelation 13, the Beast and the Antichrist will imitate the life of Christ and bring deception. Believing these deceptions, the day of grace will end for anyone ‘who rejected the Gospel prior to the Tribulation’....
Don’t expect to outwit God’s plan. One day soon, the Lord will return. If people today have rejected Him, their day of opportunity will be lost..they will be deceived in the tribulation period.
Pauls summed up our mission thusly: "Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ." - Colossians 1:28
All that other "stuff" the progressive "Christians" speak about is so they don't have to warn people about sin and the consequences of it - God's Wrath (John 3:36; Ephesians 2:3; 5:6; Col. 3:6; 1 Thess 1:10; 5:9; et al). IOW - they do not preach the Gospel of Christ. I've never once heard them preach the Gospel of repentance unto God and Faith in Christ (Acts 20:20,21). They will not tell those people they hope to meet that God expects them to live Holy lives (1 Peter 1:14-16)...and if they are homosexuals now - they need Christ and they need to walk away from that like (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
So - if you can't get the Gospel correct - you most certainly can't get the more difficult doctrines correct.
I'm not so sure on this one. I'm currently doing a study on Biblical eschatology and there are some very good scriptural arguments against a tribulation.
2) According to tribulation theory, the church (and Holy Spirit) will be pulled out of the world (raptured) while other believers will go through the tribulation. This has a problem in that it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgment. If the Holy Spirit is gone, then who is going to convict the world?
3) John states in Revelation 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." John didn't look at the tribulation as something that was to come but was already happening. Paul likewise talks of us going through tribulation (e.g. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 8:35 is one place)
A most excellent book on eschatology is Biblical Eschatology, Second Edition, Edition 0002 by Jonathan Menn.
>>> You can’t assert that Christians are not appointed to trouble...
I was not “asserting” anything... I was quoting scripture:
1Th 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”
If you read the context of the full chapter, you will find that it is referring to the Day of the Lord... where Jesus is referred to as coming like a thief in the night.
There are actually two mass raptures which take place... one prior to the tribulation period, and one at the end.
The troubles and persecution you referred to are from the enemy. God’s wrath is far worse, and is NOT directed at His own body.
“Truth (1) – The Rapture occurs before the Tribulation.”
It can’t, since Jesus himself describes this “rapture” as concurrent with his return:
“30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matt 24:30-31
..and Jesus has already told us just 1 verse before that this happens “Immediately after the tribulation of those days...”
You can write as many paragraphs of speculation as you want, but I don’t see how you can argue with the plain statements of Jesus on the matter. The second coming, and the gathering of the elect to Christ, happen after the tribulation (or at least, at the very conclusion of it).
“Truth (2) – The gospel is preached during the Tribulation. That there will be many believers on earth during the Tribulation period is evident in Scripture.”
Certainly that is true, but this also means that it is fallacious to interpret the statements about the church not being appointed to wrath as some promise that it will be removed before the tribulation. There are not two churches; there is only one body of Christ. So if some believers are here during the tribulation, then the church is here as well.
“Truth (3) – The fullness of the Gentiles is seen in souls saved in the Tribulation. Scripture (Rom 11:25) makes clear that the Church is not the “fullness of the Gentiles,” or all Israel would be saved when the Church is raptured.”
Not really following your logic here about Rom 11:25. That verse says that Israel (excluding the faithful remnant already saved) will be blinded until “the fullness of the Gentiles be come in”, which seems to mean all the gentile believers who will be saved at that point are saved. Where does it make clear that “the Church is not the “fullness of the Gentiles”? I think you have to already take for granted this notion that the church has to be removed prior to the tribulation before you can come to this conclusion.
“The gospel is the same gospel as we preach, except the emphasis falls on the coming King and Kingdom. To assume that any soul who has heard the gospel in this age will have a second chance in the Tribulation is to go far beyond Scripture. “
Where do you get the idea that God places some time limit on when people can be saved, short of their death? I assume you believe the tribulation lasts seven years, and of course nearly everyone on the planet has already heard the basic message of the gospel nowadays, so do you think this multitude that is saved during the tribulation is only made up of small children or something that didn’t hear about Christ before the tribulation? Or do you think they can be saved even if they did hear the gospel, but only because they will hear this “gospel of the kingdom” that is the same, but somehow different? This seems really odd.
“Clearly these souls in Tribulation days are hearing the glorious message for the first time.”
Why “clearly”? What evidence do you have for this?
“Truth (4) – Faith does not provide exemption from the Tribulation judgments.”
Alright, but then why this insistence that the church is going to be whisked away because it isn’t “appointed to wrath”?
“There’s s huge difference between the Great Tribulation when it comes and what we face as tribulation while on earth...”
Well, there is certainly a great difference in degree, but Jesus still specifically chose that word to describe the period, when He could have easily chosen a word that meant “wrath” if that is what He wanted to say.
“You keep saying this, like you’ll have the time to react—or even that the choice will be yours....
Best efforts only. No guarantee.
... but better than going through the tribulation.
The tribulation period is ALL ABOUT God’s wrath upon the earth.... and the restoration of Israel to the true Messiah.//
Yep and to continue your thought “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” Rev 3:10.
“I was quoting scripture”
Yes, and I was pointing out that the scripture doesn’t say we are not appointed to tribulation.
“If you read the context of the full chapter, you will find that it is referring to the Day of the Lord... where Jesus is referred to as coming like a thief in the night.”
Yes, and that chapter tells us:
“4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
We are admonished to be sober, and not to sleep, so the day of the Lord doesn’t “overtake” us. That would seem to be a very pointless admonition if we are to be whisked away before the day arrives.
“There are actually two mass raptures which take place... one prior to the tribulation period, and one at the end.”
That’s a new one to me. Jesus talks about one gathering together at his second coming, after the tribulation. I’ve never seen any evidence in the Bible for one before that.
“The troubles and persecution you referred to are from the enemy. God’s wrath is far worse, and is NOT directed at His own body.”
Sure, that is true. However, “tribulation” and “wrath” are still not the same thing.
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