Posted on 06/16/2019 4:55:18 AM PDT by CharlesOConnell
In Captains Courageous, with Spencer Tracey, Freddy Batholomew is a blowhard millionaire's son who is socially, poorly adjusted. He uses his father's incredible wealth, to bully his classmates and even his teacher, but he's roundly disliked, and ostracized. While on an ocean liner, he unsuccessfully tries to impress some other boys by eating 5 ice cream sodas. When he has to throw up, to escape the mocking boys, he runs into a lifeboat area to evade their ridicule while purging his overindulgence, and manages to fall overboard into the ocean.
Instances of people falling overboard into the open ocean are rather commonly reported in the news. Usually they are lost, but if by chance their accidents are observed and a life-preserver is thrown to them, is that the end of the story, do we just say, "oh, well, you have a floatation device, you're okay now"?
No, we have to pull them in. The life-preserver, the lifesaver, is only part of the formula for saving their lives. There is also a rope, which must be attached to the life-preserver, and must be used to finally accomplish their salvation.
Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man. But on the man side of the equation, unlike the radical individuality most typified by J.J. Rousseau, we who life the life of Christians do so in communities. But even then, we do not abide as atomistic individualists. We live our Jesus-oriented life in relation to our fellows. "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." – Hebrews 10:25.
Jesus' first disciple was his mother, who gave us the total account of his early life and who "treasured these things up in her heart". "A sword will pierce your own soul too, so that the secret thoughts of many hearts might be revealed". On the cross, he gave his mother to John to take in his home, but when you take your master's mother, she takes care of you.
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.
And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. …
And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had borne the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth. Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. - Rev 11:19 -- 12:17
She forms the body of Christ. She schools her son's disciples. Those who won't attend her school, remain ignorant.
We are in a time when any merely human institution would be washed away. Our churches are going under the shadow of a new Heresy of Ba'al of Peor, as when the Hebrew people were successfully attacked and overwhelmed through human sexuality. Our churches are now pro-gay and as soon as the civil authority authorizes child sex, they will be indistinguishable from the denizens of the town of Sodom: "Bring them out that we may know them".
Jesus' mother forms the few of the elect who will resist being fooled by the great apostasy. Those who will not avail themselves of the lifeline of Mary, will be lost.
Jesus told Philip that all he could see of the Father was what Philip could see in Jesus. It works like this: the dimensional limits of Philip's physical and spiritual existence were such that he could see only where God intersected his limits, as Jesus. That is how Jesus is God witrh us. Then Jesus also told His disciples after He had risen and was about to ascend that He would send The Holy Spirit (not named that way but understood) to instruct them in all things. This spiritual 'upgrade' can only be done by God, as God the Holy Spirit. That's three ways we actualize God, Who Is One manifesting according to the limits of the Universe He Created. So yes, I definitely believe in the Trinity, the three perspectives we can comprehend of The One God.
Now, when Catholicism affords to a created being god-like powers and titles like mediatrix and co-redemptrix, such as The Mother of the human body GOD indwelt as the man, Christ Jesus, I call heresy and to even hint that The One God needs the 'help' of a created being who has died, in order to manage prayers and to carry messages to HIM as JESUS THE CHRIST, well that's flat out blasphemy.
On a further note, conflating The Body of All Believers since Pentecost Spirit Day, with any Org. by using the phrase The Church' meaning an Org but purposely misleading folks to make the connection as if ONLY the Org is the body of all believers, well, that is purposed deception.
The Body of Christ is made up of ALL those born from above by the Holy SPirit, and the members can be found in many denominations, even Catholic churches. It is This Body of believers to whom Paul makes reference as being Raptured away from this planet when He, The Lord Christ, comes down into the first Heaven and calls forth the dead in Christ and the living who are His (born from above by their profession and 'faithing' in Him. (1 Thess 4:13-17) That Body to which Paul refers is the One True Church, the Body of Christ (which Paul references when in writing to the Corinthians he sought to clarify the Remembrance of the Lord's Supper). As you know, the term / word Ekklesia has been translated in English as church. It is not specifically the Catholic Church, or the Lutheran Church, or the Episcopal (spit) Church, etc. It is the One True Church of the Living God Whose Head in the Lord Christ. THAT BODY of BELIEVERS is not an ORG such as the Catholic Org.
I don’t think you grasp the meaning of what I asked, because your answer is rather obtuse.
You seem to have a different understanding, (correct me if I am misstating this), of basically one Divine Person who can be considered by us from three different perspectives.
That is, (direct quote) "the three perspectives we can comprehend of The One God." Or (another direct quote) "Three different ways that we actualize God."
Is that correct?
(I won't comment now on what you imagine Catholics think of Mary--- that's a different topic for later.)
But just on the Trinity, does what I said reflect what you believe?
You seem to have an understanding which is quite different from the above, (correct me if I am misstating this). YOu seem o think there is one Divine Person (God) who can be considered by us from three different perspectives. That is, (direct quote) "the three perspectives we can comprehend of The One God." Or (another direct quote) "Three different ways that we actualize God."
Is that correct? (I won't comment now on what you imagine Catholics think of Mary--- that's a different topic for later.) But just on the Trinity, does what I said in the box, above, accurately reflect what you believe?
It's hard to believe some people just don't get it that there's NO difference in saying you are saved by grace but kept by your works and your works are what save you. It's a blindness of the spiritual kind.
Yes it is. People are either saved by all works, or all faith, but no way is it a combination of the two. I believe it is all faith. I think 1st Corinthians 2:14 plays a part in it.
I'd say probably don't hold your breath waiting for that answer.
Rather than thinking Freeper Protestants/Evangelicals wait for the opportunity to "swarm" Catholic threads and barge into other people's discussions, try to see instead that when we see threads that provoke a response from us, we don't shy away from defending our faith. This thread, for example, states:
Do you think it wise to just let that kind of thing go unanswered? Most of us know that arguing with Catholics about their devotion to the Virgin Mary is futile, but when articles are posted that assert those who do not share in such beliefs are "ignorant" or "will be lost", they cry for a counter argument and a defense.
And, there HAS been Catholic swarming on past non-Catholic Religion Forum threads that Catholics objected to especially those that were seen to contradict Catholic doctrines, but such threads are rare anymore. We should be sensitive to how others might receive the articles we post. For those who relish a good old fashioned debate, that is what OPEN RF threads provide.
God is One.
God has no Mother, there is no mother goddess who helps her 'spouse'.
Are you under the notion that Mary provided half of Jesus's chromosomes and God as the person Holy Spirit provided the other half?
Eggs Ackley! The mother goddess who empowers her son ...
I believe the poster referred to the post Food era. Semiramis, the wife of Nimrod, together with the son, Tammuz, makes up the unholy trinity. For the real Trinity, there is the Satanic counterfeit, unholy trinity. Remember in the Bible, the Greeks went off the deep end, yelling great is Diana of the Ephesians. The original name was Semiramis.
I think the sign of the cross, is the sign of T for Tammuz. I think his signs, were the evergreen tree and the Yule log. Sound familiar? With a few variations here and there, I think the religion of Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz, is what Paul, the Apostles and all the rest were going up against, and essentially, we still are. 😁
The RC answer is "salvation by grace," but which means salvation by grace thru merit, that by the grace of God one becomes actually good enough to be with God. And which is akin to salvation as under the law, needing to reach a standard of perfection, except that according to Catholicism, more grace is given to actually attain to an even higher standard than that of the Law, and thereby meriting eternal life. However, since this is enabled by grace, then it is said to not be in conflict with salvation by grace thru faith, not of works (of the Law), and with merit being under grace, (which it is) and thus differentiated from earning. (CCC 2025)
Rather than the believer being accounted righteousness by faith (Romans 4:5; 10:10) which faith purifies the heart in the washing of regeneration when one effectually believes the gospel, (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; Titus 3:5) and which results in the fruit of obedience/holiness, (Romans 6:22) and which evidences that such are believers and which effectual faith God rewards the justified for, (1 Co. 3:8ff: but not that the believer attained his salvific justified acceptance with God due to his own holiness), the RC process of salvation begins at baptism which act itself (ex opere operato) actually make one righteous enough so that the baptized could go to Heaven if he died right then, before the sin nature that remains makes it manifest that he is not fit to enter Heaven, and which thus (usually) necessitates Purgatory, so that he may once again become good enough to be with God. To wit (emphasis throughout is mine):
Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies. (CCC 1227) The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification... (CCC 1266) Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. (CCC 1992) The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift...infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. (CCC 1999)
Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis).” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace)
Thus it is believed that the newly baptized, who are thus inwardly just, formally justified and made holy by their own personal justice and holiness, would go to Heaven if they died before they sin:
By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . .) have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. (CCC 1023)
However, since the unholy sinful Adamic nature is all too alive and manifests itself in these "inwardly just" (righteous souls), meaning that (unless the attain to the level of practical perfection needed) they are in in need of purification when they die.
Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized , such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence. .. (CCC 1264)
And thus, what flows from the original error of believing man must actually become good enough to be with God (rather than faith being counted/imputed for righteous, - Rm. 4:5 - and with obedience and holiness being evidential fruit of regenerating faith) is that of the doctrine of RC Purgatory, by which, besides atoning for sins not sufficiently expiated on earth, serves to make the baptized good enough to be with God.
The Catholic Encyclopedia also states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness " etc. (City of God XXI.24.) <
And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness ".
One "cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory)
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030) .)
"The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God." (Jimmy Akin, How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants).
"Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected." Purification must be complete..." "This is exactly what takes place in Purgatory." — John Paul II, Audiences, 1999; http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999.html
Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states,
"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224
However, this premise of perfection of character for final salvation eliminates the newly baptized from entering Heaven (if they died before they sinned), since while innocent (not the the act of baptism regenerates anyway) according to Catholicism, yet they have not yet attained to spiritual excellence, to perfection of the soul, the level of practical holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. And this premise would also exclude the contrite criminal of Luke 23:43 from being with Christ at death, yet who was told by the Lord that he would be with Christ in Paradise that day, and likewise imperfect Paul, (Philippians 3:13) who attested that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:7; cf. Philippians 1:23) And indeed it would exclude all believers who were told that they would be forever with the Lord if He returned in their lifetime (1 This. 4:17) though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul.
For wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)
And rather than Purgatory conforming souls to Christ to inherit the kingdom of God, the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being made like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)
Note also that the tradition-based Eastern Orthodox reject RC Purgatory, among some other substantial RC distinctives .
In addition, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is specious, since testing of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of here development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6)
Meanwhile the salvation by holiness via baptism and purgatory are all under the RC rubric of salvation by grace thru merit:
The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. (CCC 1813 )
Moved by the Holy Spirit,
we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. (CCC 2027)
"nothing further is wanting to the justified [baptized and faithful], to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life." (Trent, Chapter XVI; The Sixth Session Decree on justification, 1547)
"If anyone says...that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit...the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema." (Trent, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 32.
The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members..., (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2006)
Note however, that "With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man," "the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit." (CCC 2007-2008)
However, this argument could be used for those who held to salvation under the Law, that by the grace of God they attained unto perfect obedience (and Paul as a Pharisee was blameless as concerning this: Philippians 3:6), and salvation by grace does not mean salvation by attaining to actual, practical perfection in this life or in Purgatory, but that of being accepted in the Beloved on His account, (Eph. 1:6) and with obedience with holiness being its effects/fruits, but the effects are not the cause of justification, though works justify one as being a believer. (Heb. 6:9,10)
And while God does reward faith (Hebrews 10:35) by rewarding the obedience of faith, (Mt. 25:31-40) and which obedience attests that one is a believer and thus it is appropriate that they be blessed, yet the "worthiness" here is not because moral attainment itself has made such accepted in the Beloved, and made them to sit together with Christ in Heaven,(Eph. 1:6; 2:6) and given them access to into the holy of holies in Heaven to pray, (Heb. 10:19) but as in conversion, it is because the faith that effects obedience is imputed for righteousness, (Rm. 4:5) and which thus results in God rewarding the obedience of faith. Thus they are exhorted, "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward." (Hebrews 10:35)
However, the Catholic emphasis upon merit as obtaining eternal life not only leads to salvation via obtaining perfection of heart in this life or in mythical Purgatory, but it fosters just what the natural man expects, that if he does more good than evil then he can obtain heaven. As expressed by this RC:
I feel when my numbers up I will appoach a large table and St.Peter will be there with an enormous scale of justice by his side. We will see our life in a movie...the things that we did for the benefit of others will be for the plus side of the scale..the other stuff,,not so good will..well, be on the negative side..and so its a very interesting job Pete has. I wonder if he pushes a button for the elevator down for the losers...and what .sideways for those heading for purgatory..the half way house....lets wait and see.... ” http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=4098202&postcount=2
Do not assume RCs know what Scripture or their church teaches or that the two fundamentally conflict, and with distinctive Catholic teachings not being manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation.
See more on Purgatory vs. Scripture here, by the grace of God.
Well; MY knowledge is that Catholics do NOT swarm their own CAUCUS threads.
They ARE found where there is a PROT presence; trying to convince the weak that Rome's way is the ONLY way.
I myself have argued against Paul being the author of Hebrews on the basis of the contrasting style and absence of his otherwise uniform statement of his authorship, yet 2 Peter 3:15 seems to refer to this epistle, and thus I postulate that it may have been originally a synagogue address (to Christians meeting therein) that was penned by someone else, as with the gospels and the teachings of Christ.
But if you want to contend against the Pauline authorship of Hebrews than that is fine with me. However, then you need to thus attribute error to your own council of Trent:
the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below...fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews (The Council of Trent - Session 4; http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch4.htm)
Probably because we have so few of them.
Where are the Baptist caucus threads?
The Lutheran caucus threads??
The Pentecostal, Amish, Episcopalian ones???
No; where you 'go' are OPEN threads, ones that anyone can put their 2¢'s worth in.
That was long ago, before mgt. was tuned into the fact that many Catholics were acting like Mormons in pushing the “I'm aggrieved” button.
And is definitely one of the nicer ones; too.
Yup. The parallels between what passes for “christianity” and Roman pagan worship are STUNNING. In fact, the result is a hybrid...combining imagery/symbolism and traditional elements from Roman paganism, with certain beliefs taken from God inspired Scripture (both OT and NT). This combination “claims” to base its epistemology on Scripture, but if you actually “peel the onion”, and press them on it, you’ll discover that they don’t actually defer to Scripture. They defer to “church tradition”... which came from its previous pagan origins. But don’t tell them that, otherwise they’ll spit blood and fire and get mad at you. But it doesn’t change the truth. You are aware that in the 1400s they would murder you and I for saying these things! I’m telling you man... ya just can’t make this stuff up!
Yes...I’ve seen some of those threads. Today’s conversations look pretty tame compared to those prior.
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