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Until now I have avoided threads like this one, but I have seen a few of them lately and I wonder if someone has a mission of separating Jewish and Christian conservatives from one-another.

Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. It is not just a geographic area; it is the place that the Jewish Bible identifies as the home of the Jews’ Temple in Jerusalem, the land where certain laws relating to the land are followed (and they do not apply anywhere else in the world). The Five Books of Moses tell the story of the Jews being sent by G-d to Israel, the promised land. The prophets and the other writings (by and large discuss the penalties imposed on the Jews for misbehavior in the land of Israel.

Since the expulsion of the Jews by the Romans following the Bar Kokhba rebellion about 70 years after the Second Temple was destroyed, Jews have longed to be back in Israel. The cry of “Next Year in Jerusalem” was said at the end of the Passover seder; Jews would leave a little bit of their homes unfinished in commemoration of the destruction of the Temple; at Jewish weddings the Groom breaks a glass under his foot just when he is married in order to commemorate that destruction.

Hatikva, the national anthem of the Jewish State of Israel, expresses the hope (that is what HaTikva means) that the Jews can be a free people in their land).

Jews do not begrudge a Christian presence in Israel. To the contrary, they are welcomed. The Christian sites, including monasteries, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and others, are visited by millions of Christian pilgrims every year. In 2018 alone, some 25 million tourists visited Israel, and most of them are not Jews.

All the Jews ask is that Christians not try to convert Jews by subterfuge. Pretending to be Jews, approaching uninformed Jews to convince them that they can be both Jews and Christians, inviting them to Christian prayer meetings without calling them Christian — all of this is a sly, underhanded way to insinuate their religion into the body politic of the Jewish people.

In my opinion, it is unethical to do this, and the consequence is that it makes Jews distrustful of Christians and makes Christians resentful of Jews. It is time for this to stop. We have so much more in common than what divides us. Sneaky efforts like these destroy those common bonds.

RE: All the Jews ask is that Christians not try to convert Jews by subterfuge. Pretending to be Jews, approaching uninformed Jews to convince them that they can be both Jews and Christians, inviting them to Christian prayer meetings without calling them Christian — all of this is a sly, underhanded way to insinuate their religion into the body politic of the Jewish people.

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I am not sure I follow the logic -— what does converting a Jew by subterfuge mean? If someone is trying to convince you to believe that Jesus (who is Himself a Jew) is the Jewish Messiah, why is that a repudiation of what the Jews believe in? The unstated assumption of course is this — because Jesus is NOT the Jewish Messiah.

But that is not subterfuge, that is in fact an attempt at evangelizing the Jew in the sincere belief that it FULFILLS the prophecies in his scripture.

Now, the Jewish listener is free to accept or reject the message. But to say that someone who accepts the message is now NOT a Jew is puzzling.

Let me ask the question another way — is a Jew who becomes an atheist still considered a Jew?

"Until now I have avoided threads like this one, but I have seen a few of them lately and I wonder if someone has a mission of separating Jewish and Christian conservatives from one-another."

I think that is undoubtedly true.

I am loathe to wade into this fetid morass and so will make one, and only one, post. I will not reply.

First, a couple of observations about the original post. It uses the term "ultra-orthodox" repeatedly. There is no such thing as "ultra-orthodox".

As a Jewish Israeli (Orthdox, married into a Haredi family), that tells me a two things:

(1) the author is a reader of anti-Zionist or anti-religious publications, such as Haaretz

(2) the author hasn't a clue about sects of Judaism.

That said, there are many Haredi sects in Israel. Many of them are anti-Zionist themselves. They hate the secular state of Israel, hate any Jewish person (including other Haredi) not part of their particular cult, and are generally assholes to everyone, including me.

So, it's quite true that several of these Haredi sects are awful to Nazarenes (this is actual direct translation of your religion's name into Hebrew; not a reference to the present-day church/denomination of a similar name).

Some groups can definitely be radical, full of hate, and do amazingly stupid and evil things.

Think of them as the Westboro Baptist Churches, the Jewish version.

And like the Westboro Baptists are not a reflection on Nazarenes, writ large, no one sane should extrapolate anything regarding Judaism from them.

So, how does the typical Israeli Orthodox Jewish person view a Nazarene (any given denomination)?

Well, I was always taught what Maimondes taught: We share the belief in that the Torah (indeed, the entire Tanukh) is the Word of G-d and that there is thus a relationship there that cannot be broken, that Nazarene (whatever issues we have with some theology -- e.g., the Trinity) is a fine, moral, Nohadic religion for gentiles.

Almost all the moral beliefs of a Conservative Nazarene are identical to that of a Torah-observant Jewish person. Indeed, many (such as poke out your eye if you are tempted) are direct quotes from the Talmud and Jewish teaching regarding "building a wall around the Torah."

I grew up in Gush Katif (in Gaza), speak decent Arabic, and spent a fair amount of my youth guiding Nazarenes to various holy sites. In general, I liked them, thought them wonderful, upstanding, and sincere, people.

My views are probably typical Israeli.

Now some specific replies regarding Messianic Jewish people

Theologically, and under Israeli law, they come in two flavors: (1) Jewish people who consider Yeshua of Nazareth to be the Mosiach and (2) Gentiles who play dress up and pretend to be Jewish and/or take upon themselves some level of Torah observance, either (a)as a ruse to trick people or (b) because they think it is theologically correct to do so.

Under Jewish law and Israeli secular law, category #1 are Jewish. If you have a Jewish mother and/or you have an Orthodox conversion, you are Jewish. Full stop. It doesn't matter if someone dunked you into a mikva or sprinkled water on your head. Once a Jew, always a Jew.

Now, other Jewish people consider them heretics, yes. But Jewish heretics. The days of stoning heretics are long behind us (excepting for our versions of the Westboro Baptists, that is).

Category 2 are gentiles, of the Nazarene variety.

Category 2(a) are assholes and frauds, and the ones that piss people off.

Category 2(b) are fascinating and confusing, but not assholes, although it would be polite if they make it clear that they are 2(b) and not 1 or 2(a).

Indeed, I often think 2(a) are the sincerest form of Nazarene and quite moral and wonderful people. Remind me of the Amish, who I also like and respect. They are, as noted, most closely following the original form of Nazarenism.

And now some specific responses:

"A person who holds a belief in direct contradiction with the Torah is not a Jew, though they may be Ashkenazi."

Incorrect. See above.

"Orthodox Jews reject the Torah and follow the Talmud.""

This is just flat wrong. The very meaning of Orthodox Jew is one who accepts (and follows) the Torah. The Oral Law (the Talmud) is known to be incomplete and conflicting (in places). The Torah is the Torah. Every letter is sacred and true. Now, the Oral Law helps fill in blanks and things that are unclear, but if one reads the Oral Law in a way to supplant the Torah, one is reading it wrong or it was written wrong.

“All the Jews ask is that Christians not try to convert Jews by subterfuge. Pretending to be Jews, approaching uninformed Jews to convince them that they can be both Jews and Christians, inviting them to Christian prayer meetings without calling them Christian — all of this is a sly, underhanded way to insinuate their religion into the body politic of the Jewish people.”
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I understand your thought process and appreciate how well you worded it.

Christians are told within the writings of the Bible to give no thought as to what we are to say, to let the Holy Spirit speak through us. If we use deceit in any way it destroys what we are seeking to do at the moment and can carry harm for generations via the souls that may have been reached and were not because of subterfuge.

Years ago a woman I knew because an Israeli citizen. Her love of the people was that great. She served in the army as a citizen.

On occasion she would mention that when asked if she was a Christian (she was/is) she would tell the questioner that she worshipped the Jewish God.

As a Christian she spoke correctly, because the Lord God of the Jewish race is indeed our Lord God. I was always troubled, though, by her splitting the hairs so finely in her answer to that question.

She explained that over there is was unacceptable for a Christian to attempt to proselytize their faith.

I just couldn’t shake the feeling of believing she was not um...correct. The early believers hid their faith, yes. They did so out of fear of life and limb, having services in hidden places. When caught, however, they were not to lie, but to ask for the grace to be strong in their faith.

So I just couldn’t reconcile to her thinking. I guess it would indeed by like Jews or Christians suffering persecution today. I can understand the fear. I respect and hold in awe those Jews and/or Christians who place their lives at risk for their faith.

I sorry for those Jews who don’t know my Christ. Yet, could not bring myself to use trickery.

Sorry for the ramble.