Replies

"Until now I have avoided threads like this one, but I have seen a few of them lately and I wonder if someone has a mission of separating Jewish and Christian conservatives from one-another."

I think that is undoubtedly true.

I am loathe to wade into this fetid morass and so will make one, and only one, post. I will not reply.

First, a couple of observations about the original post. It uses the term "ultra-orthodox" repeatedly. There is no such thing as "ultra-orthodox".

As a Jewish Israeli (Orthdox, married into a Haredi family), that tells me a two things:

(1) the author is a reader of anti-Zionist or anti-religious publications, such as Haaretz

(2) the author hasn't a clue about sects of Judaism.

That said, there are many Haredi sects in Israel. Many of them are anti-Zionist themselves. They hate the secular state of Israel, hate any Jewish person (including other Haredi) not part of their particular cult, and are generally assholes to everyone, including me.

So, it's quite true that several of these Haredi sects are awful to Nazarenes (this is actual direct translation of your religion's name into Hebrew; not a reference to the present-day church/denomination of a similar name).

Some groups can definitely be radical, full of hate, and do amazingly stupid and evil things.

Think of them as the Westboro Baptist Churches, the Jewish version.

And like the Westboro Baptists are not a reflection on Nazarenes, writ large, no one sane should extrapolate anything regarding Judaism from them.

So, how does the typical Israeli Orthodox Jewish person view a Nazarene (any given denomination)?

Well, I was always taught what Maimondes taught: We share the belief in that the Torah (indeed, the entire Tanukh) is the Word of G-d and that there is thus a relationship there that cannot be broken, that Nazarene (whatever issues we have with some theology -- e.g., the Trinity) is a fine, moral, Nohadic religion for gentiles.

Almost all the moral beliefs of a Conservative Nazarene are identical to that of a Torah-observant Jewish person. Indeed, many (such as poke out your eye if you are tempted) are direct quotes from the Talmud and Jewish teaching regarding "building a wall around the Torah."

I grew up in Gush Katif (in Gaza), speak decent Arabic, and spent a fair amount of my youth guiding Nazarenes to various holy sites. In general, I liked them, thought them wonderful, upstanding, and sincere, people.

My views are probably typical Israeli.

Now some specific replies regarding Messianic Jewish people

Theologically, and under Israeli law, they come in two flavors: (1) Jewish people who consider Yeshua of Nazareth to be the Mosiach and (2) Gentiles who play dress up and pretend to be Jewish and/or take upon themselves some level of Torah observance, either (a)as a ruse to trick people or (b) because they think it is theologically correct to do so.

Under Jewish law and Israeli secular law, category #1 are Jewish. If you have a Jewish mother and/or you have an Orthodox conversion, you are Jewish. Full stop. It doesn't matter if someone dunked you into a mikva or sprinkled water on your head. Once a Jew, always a Jew.

Now, other Jewish people consider them heretics, yes. But Jewish heretics. The days of stoning heretics are long behind us (excepting for our versions of the Westboro Baptists, that is).

Category 2 are gentiles, of the Nazarene variety.

Category 2(a) are assholes and frauds, and the ones that piss people off.

Category 2(b) are fascinating and confusing, but not assholes, although it would be polite if they make it clear that they are 2(b) and not 1 or 2(a).

Indeed, I often think 2(a) are the sincerest form of Nazarene and quite moral and wonderful people. Remind me of the Amish, who I also like and respect. They are, as noted, most closely following the original form of Nazarenism.

And now some specific responses:

"A person who holds a belief in direct contradiction with the Torah is not a Jew, though they may be Ashkenazi."

Incorrect. See above.

"Orthodox Jews reject the Torah and follow the Talmud.""

This is just flat wrong. The very meaning of Orthodox Jew is one who accepts (and follows) the Torah. The Oral Law (the Talmud) is known to be incomplete and conflicting (in places). The Torah is the Torah. Every letter is sacred and true. Now, the Oral Law helps fill in blanks and things that are unclear, but if one reads the Oral Law in a way to supplant the Torah, one is reading it wrong or it was written wrong.

I salute you for your factual, even-handed and genial analysis of the prior discussion.

In my experience, people who pontificate about the wrongness of either religion from the vantage point of the other religion (alphabetical order: Christian or Jewish) have not read or studied the scriptures of the other religion, and possibly have not read or studied the scriptures of their own. Studying the scriptures (not the auxiliary commentaries) sheds a lot of light. The Lord speaks to us through those Words.

(Not really responding but excellent post)(no need to answer)