When Orthodox Jews oppose followers of Jesus

Christian Post ^ | 06/11/2019 | Michael Brown

[captain_dave]

To believe that Jesus is God incarnate violates the First Commandment. One cannot remain Jewish and claim Jesus as a god. Also, messianic Judaism is known to be a Baptist missionary activity.

[golux]

I agree absolutely and I am glad you said it.

[EinNYC]

Yours is the mindset that crucified Christ and has persecuted Christians for 2000 years!! Jews like you reject and hate both Jewish and Gentile Christians.

JC is not a part of Judaism. And never will be. That would be a violation of the First Commandment. I don't give a good case of cow flatulence what you say otherwise. And your recommendation that I actually seek out messyonic professional liars (still laughing my head off at your "Christian Rabbi", of which there is no such thing) is disgusting.

The more hysterically you post, the more you show the world what a sham you are. But hey---keep flapping your lips. Maybe you can achieve enough lift to fly to the moon. That would be about as likely as anything you said being true. Stuff it, fella.

[jjotto]

A Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism by Jewish law. A born Jew who adopts Christianity need not reconvert to Judaism when he returns, but it should be no surprise that one who professes another religion will in most respects be treated as a non-Jew.

Anyone who is identifiably Jewish should bear in mind that no matter how Christian one becomes, he will not escape the inevitable persecution for being Jewish when it comes.

A Jew is actually someone who has a Jewish soul, and many non-Jews can subconsciously feel the presence of that Jewish soul.

[justa-hairyape]

If you believe people are living or dead because of gods will, why do you want to thwart or change Gods will ?

[golux]

What we Jews are afraid of is that we'll send our children to Israel to become better Jews, and they'll come back Christians.

Heck, if it happened to God it could happen to anyone!

[golux]

There's no fighting it, Ein. The Yeshuah types are not only convinced that all Jews are going to Hell... They're convinced they're the exception! On the other hand it is sort of charming to hear Christians at Nashville cocktail parties try out the latest Hebrew words they learn in Bible Study...

Shalom haver! Como esta Eretz Israel? Tovim! Praise Yeshivah Ha'mealy Mundo!

[sparklite2]

Israeli culture is not quite what we imagine.

Israeli Arabs and Jews have learned how to get along
passably well. What’s irritating are the foreign
Christians coming to Israel to convert them. And
that applies to the Israeli Arabs, too.

[Yaelle]

Of course! I love Christians and Christianity as a religion, even if it isn’t mine and I don’t have the same theology.

[Yaelle]

Lol! Excellent joke!!

But seriously, every non religious kid I know who went to Birthright comes back much more into Judaism! All of them! The ones you’d LEAST expect. One was a young female cannabis grower. And one I know and love dearly has now become a citizen of Israel and lives there.

I hope my son goes one day.

[SeekAndFind]

RE: If you believe Jesus was the Messiah, you are a Christian - full stop. If a person who believes that calls themselves a Jew, that is deceit.

I am not sure I follow the logic. Let’s ask a different question — is a person who is a Jew but does not believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still a Jew?

Put in another way, if you were born a Jew but disbelieve in Judaism, are you still a Jew?

[SeekAndFind]

RE: All the Jews ask is that Christians not try to convert Jews by subterfuge. Pretending to be Jews, approaching uninformed Jews to convince them that they can be both Jews and Christians, inviting them to Christian prayer meetings without calling them Christian — all of this is a sly, underhanded way to insinuate their religion into the body politic of the Jewish people.

__________________________

I am not sure I follow the logic -— what does converting a Jew by subterfuge mean? If someone is trying to convince you to believe that Jesus (who is Himself a Jew) is the Jewish Messiah, why is that a repudiation of what the Jews believe in? The unstated assumption of course is this — because Jesus is NOT the Jewish Messiah.

But that is not subterfuge, that is in fact an attempt at evangelizing the Jew in the sincere belief that it FULFILLS the prophecies in his scripture.

Now, the Jewish listener is free to accept or reject the message. But to say that someone who accepts the message is now NOT a Jew is puzzling.

Let me ask the question another way — is a Jew who becomes an atheist still considered a Jew?

[golux]

Yes, I agree. I lived in Israel for three years, though I am not Israeli.

[SeekAndFind]

RE: I’ve known Jews who converted to Christianity and vice versa, but not an ancient tribe of Jews who worship Jesus.

I don’t think he is referring to a tribe, but a group of Jewish people — the disciples of Jesus, who were ALL Jews.

Whether we like it or not, the earliest followers of Jesus were ALL Jews. In fact, without these group of Jewish men, we would not have the religion called Christianity today.

[Jewbacca]

"Until now I have avoided threads like this one, but I have seen a few of them lately and I wonder if someone has a mission of separating Jewish and Christian conservatives from one-another."

I think that is undoubtedly true.

I am loathe to wade into this fetid morass and so will make one, and only one, post. I will not reply.

First, a couple of observations about the original post. It uses the term "ultra-orthodox" repeatedly. There is no such thing as "ultra-orthodox".

As a Jewish Israeli (Orthdox, married into a Haredi family), that tells me a two things:

(1) the author is a reader of anti-Zionist or anti-religious publications, such as Haaretz

(2) the author hasn't a clue about sects of Judaism.

That said, there are many Haredi sects in Israel. Many of them are anti-Zionist themselves. They hate the secular state of Israel, hate any Jewish person (including other Haredi) not part of their particular cult, and are generally assholes to everyone, including me.

So, it's quite true that several of these Haredi sects are awful to Nazarenes (this is actual direct translation of your religion's name into Hebrew; not a reference to the present-day church/denomination of a similar name).

Some groups can definitely be radical, full of hate, and do amazingly stupid and evil things.

Think of them as the Westboro Baptist Churches, the Jewish version.

And like the Westboro Baptists are not a reflection on Nazarenes, writ large, no one sane should extrapolate anything regarding Judaism from them.

So, how does the typical Israeli Orthodox Jewish person view a Nazarene (any given denomination)?

Well, I was always taught what Maimondes taught: We share the belief in that the Torah (indeed, the entire Tanukh) is the Word of G-d and that there is thus a relationship there that cannot be broken, that Nazarene (whatever issues we have with some theology -- e.g., the Trinity) is a fine, moral, Nohadic religion for gentiles.

Almost all the moral beliefs of a Conservative Nazarene are identical to that of a Torah-observant Jewish person. Indeed, many (such as poke out your eye if you are tempted) are direct quotes from the Talmud and Jewish teaching regarding "building a wall around the Torah."

I grew up in Gush Katif (in Gaza), speak decent Arabic, and spent a fair amount of my youth guiding Nazarenes to various holy sites. In general, I liked them, thought them wonderful, upstanding, and sincere, people.

My views are probably typical Israeli.

Now some specific replies regarding Messianic Jewish people

Theologically, and under Israeli law, they come in two flavors: (1) Jewish people who consider Yeshua of Nazareth to be the Mosiach and (2) Gentiles who play dress up and pretend to be Jewish and/or take upon themselves some level of Torah observance, either (a)as a ruse to trick people or (b) because they think it is theologically correct to do so.

Under Jewish law and Israeli secular law, category #1 are Jewish. If you have a Jewish mother and/or you have an Orthodox conversion, you are Jewish. Full stop. It doesn't matter if someone dunked you into a mikva or sprinkled water on your head. Once a Jew, always a Jew.

Now, other Jewish people consider them heretics, yes. But Jewish heretics. The days of stoning heretics are long behind us (excepting for our versions of the Westboro Baptists, that is).

Category 2 are gentiles, of the Nazarene variety.

Category 2(a) are assholes and frauds, and the ones that piss people off.

Category 2(b) are fascinating and confusing, but not assholes, although it would be polite if they make it clear that they are 2(b) and not 1 or 2(a).

Indeed, I often think 2(a) are the sincerest form of Nazarene and quite moral and wonderful people. Remind me of the Amish, who I also like and respect. They are, as noted, most closely following the original form of Nazarenism.

And now some specific responses:

"A person who holds a belief in direct contradiction with the Torah is not a Jew, though they may be Ashkenazi."

Incorrect. See above.

"Orthodox Jews reject the Torah and follow the Talmud.""

This is just flat wrong. The very meaning of Orthodox Jew is one who accepts (and follows) the Torah. The Oral Law (the Talmud) is known to be incomplete and conflicting (in places). The Torah is the Torah. Every letter is sacred and true. Now, the Oral Law helps fill in blanks and things that are unclear, but if one reads the Oral Law in a way to supplant the Torah, one is reading it wrong or it was written wrong.

[Boogieman]

I wonder who gets more hate from religious Jews: a Jew who decides to follow Jesus? Or a Jew who decides to follow Marx?

[Boogieman]

“who are not Jews in any sense of the word”

Hmm. If their mother is a Jew, aren’t they a Jew in one very important sense of the word?

[Boogieman]

“And their practice is to fool Jews to think they are NOT CHRISTIANS. Their mission is to convert JEWS to CHRISTIANITY.”

I find it hard to reconcile these two sentences. How can you possibly convert someone to Christianity while hiding the fact that you believe in Christ?

[Boogieman]

“(Do any non-Christian sources report any of this?)”

What non-Christian sources do you expect to exist in medieval Europe exactly?

[jjotto]

Listen to lessons from rabbis like Yosef Mizrachi or Mendel Kessin!