When Orthodox Jews oppose followers of Jesus

Christian Post ^ | 06/11/2019 | Michael Brown

[SeekAndFind]

For several decades, I have drawn attention to the Church’s historic persecution of the Jews in Jesus’ name. It is one of the ugliest and longest chapters in Church history, and it cannot be downplayed, forgotten, or ignored. With God’s help, I will continue to call out “Christian” antisemitism wherever I see it today. But I will not ignore Jewish persecution of Christians. It too must be called out.

In the Gospels, Jesus and His followers, all of them Jews, were persecuted by hypocritical Jewish leaders, ultimately leading to the Lord’s death on the cross. And that pattern continued in the Book of Acts, where the Jewish leadership stood in opposition to the message of Jesus the Messiah, sometimes persecuting His Jewish followers to the death (see Acts 7).

Some even stirred up trouble wherever these Messianic Jewish emissaries went to share the good news (see Acts 17), and this continued in the centuries that followed, with some documented cases of Jewish leaders siding with local efforts to persecute Christians.

Of course, no amount of Jewish persecution of Christians can justify the horrors inflicted on the Jewish people by professing Christians, including torture, exile, being forced into ghettos, being burned at the stake, being offered baptism or death, and much more.

And it is an open secret that the Nazis drew on Martin Luther’s antisemitic writings to help enflame German hatred against the Jews.

None of this can be denied, nor should it be denied. To the contrary, we must be ever mindful of this tragic history lest we repeat it in our day.

But, to say it again, when there is Jewish persecution of followers of Jesus, that must be called out as well, especially when it takes place in Israel.

It was a radical Jew who delivered a bomb, disguised as a holiday gift, to the house of Ami Ortiz, the son of Jewish Christian parents. He miraculously survived the bomb blast, which took place in 2008.

But this act, extreme as it was, was not in isolation.

As reported by Time Magazine in 2008, “Messianic Jews, as these Jews who believe in Jesus are called, number just a few in Israel — anywhere between 6,000 and 15,000 — but they provoke hatred all out of proportion to their meager numbers. Many orthodox Jews view them as traitors for joining the Christian faith, which for centuries has persecuted Jews. One Messianic Jew, Tzvi Sadan, a teacher and editor, recalls telling his father, a Holocaust survivor, that he had accepted Jesus as his savior. ‘My dad flipped out. He said that the SS guards in the camp had 'God Is With Us' written on their belts. He told me, “You've joined the enemy.” But he calmed down a bit when he saw my prayer shawl.’” (What Sadan means is that he didn’t stop being a Jew by following Jesus.)

Over the years, Messianic Jews have suffered different levels of persecution within Israel, although none so violent as the bomb attack on Ami Ortiz.

But there have been protests and even vandalism at Messianic Jewish meeting places, attempts to get some believers deported, and various threats and harassments.

Virtually all these acts are carried out by ultra-Orthodox Jews, who view “missionary” activity as diabolical, destructive, and dishonest. As some of these protestors once chanted outside of a large Messianic Jewish gathering I was attending in Israel, “Hitler wanted our bodies. You want our souls!”

Today, as the number of Messianic Jews in Israel has risen to about 30,000 and as the society at large is much more open to these Jewish believers in Jesus, opposition from ultra-Orthodox Jews continues to rise. (For my little run-in with some ultra-Orthodox protesters last year, see here and here.)

As my friend and colleague Ron Cantor reports from Israel (with a video link worth watching), “Believers attending a Messianic concert last week in Jerusalem were accosted by dozens of Orthodox Jewish protestors, who held a violent and chaotic riot for hours, calling the people ‘missionaries’ and ‘Nazis,’ and telling them to get out of Israel. They held up several signs saying, ‘Beware, Missionaries!’ in Hebrew. In Hebrew the world Missionary is a slur. Of course, we are not missionaries, but citizens of Israel.”

Again, I understand how these protesters view us. As a rabbi said to me decades ago, “Our ancestors died rather than believe what you believe. Yet, without coercion or pressure, you not only believe in Jesus, but you try to proselytize as well.”

But, to say this yet again, none of this justifies the actions of these protesters, who were held back by police.

Ron writes that, “Jenya Lempert and his teenage daughter were accosted by swarms of young men blowing whistles at excruciating pitches and linking arms to block the entrance into the concert hall.”

As Lampert told KNI News, “It was a pure act of hatred. They hate us, they were standing against us, they brought their minors as human shields.”

Indeed, Ron explains, “Orthodox protesters have been known to bring teens, who have more liberties than adults to break the law.”

But his response to all this is right on: “It is important to not get angry but pray. At the same time, understand that this is pure fanaticism and brainwashing of children. However, it only represents a tiny minority of Israelis.”

And how should Christians around the world respond to these harassing acts?

First, they should pray for the believers being persecuted, sending them a message that they are not alone.

Second, they should pray for the repentance of the persecutors, believing that there are many Sauls of Tarsus among them.

Third, as friends of Israel who appreciate the liberties that the nation affords its citizens, they should encourage the government to stand with those who are being persecuted to send a message the government will not tolerate this kind of behavior.

All that being said, my personal expectation is that the final generation – whenever that will be – will look a lot like the Gospels and Acts, except that in the end, there will be mass acceptance of Jesus by His own people, rather than mass rejection.

May the Lord turn the hearts of His people Israel!

[Notthereyet]

From erkelly: “So then, you consider a person Jewish only by belief and not by DNA?”

From thoughtomator: “Yes.”

_________________________________

I am reading this thread with great interest.

From all I’ve read the children of a Jewish woman is considered Jewish....

Would your answer to erkelly mean you would qualify children borne of a Jewish woman to be non-Jewish until they have affirmed their Faith in the Jewish belief system?

Where would you stand on the question of if a child borne of a Jewish woman dies before affirming his or her Faith in the Jewish belief system?

In your belief system would the child be considered unfit to be declared a Jew?

[Notthereyet]

“All the Jews ask is that Christians not try to convert Jews by subterfuge. Pretending to be Jews, approaching uninformed Jews to convince them that they can be both Jews and Christians, inviting them to Christian prayer meetings without calling them Christian — all of this is a sly, underhanded way to insinuate their religion into the body politic of the Jewish people.”
______________________________________________

I understand your thought process and appreciate how well you worded it.

Christians are told within the writings of the Bible to give no thought as to what we are to say, to let the Holy Spirit speak through us. If we use deceit in any way it destroys what we are seeking to do at the moment and can carry harm for generations via the souls that may have been reached and were not because of subterfuge.

Years ago a woman I knew because an Israeli citizen. Her love of the people was that great. She served in the army as a citizen.

On occasion she would mention that when asked if she was a Christian (she was/is) she would tell the questioner that she worshipped the Jewish God.

As a Christian she spoke correctly, because the Lord God of the Jewish race is indeed our Lord God. I was always troubled, though, by her splitting the hairs so finely in her answer to that question.

She explained that over there is was unacceptable for a Christian to attempt to proselytize their faith.

I just couldn’t shake the feeling of believing she was not um...correct. The early believers hid their faith, yes. They did so out of fear of life and limb, having services in hidden places. When caught, however, they were not to lie, but to ask for the grace to be strong in their faith.

So I just couldn’t reconcile to her thinking. I guess it would indeed by like Jews or Christians suffering persecution today. I can understand the fear. I respect and hold in awe those Jews and/or Christians who place their lives at risk for their faith.

I sorry for those Jews who don’t know my Christ. Yet, could not bring myself to use trickery.

Sorry for the ramble.

[Notthereyet]

“(this thread will be pulled.... )”
____________________________________

Phinneous, were you hoping it would be pulled?

It’s an interesting thread and I am glad it was not pulled!

[Notthereyet]

Oh, my gosh, EinNYC...

You are so very angry.

[Phinneous]

As noted by another poster, some side gets too sharp and these get pulled.

[MeanWestTexan]

Indeed, best post of the thread.

Of course, people are still asking the questions clearly answered. Over-and-over.

No wonder he bugged out. Jewbacca is smarter than us.

[Notthereyet]

“There’s no fighting it, Ein. The Yeshuah types are not only convinced that all Jews are going to Hell... They’re convinced they’re the exception!”
_____________________________________
Hi, golux-!

You’ve not been listening closely enough to the Christians, and it’s understandable. Folks who believe strongly in their belief system often tune out what may cause questions to arise within their thought process. It’s unfortunately a part of the human condition, on of which I’ve experienced more times than I would normally wish to admit.

That said, Christians do NOT believe they are the only ones NOT going to Hell.

Christians believe/know that every single person in the Old Testament who believed upon the Lord God promise to send in time the Savior of the Jewish people. Before they even had a name to be called as a religious race the believers in the Old Testament had the faith required to live for their Lord God.

No name was given, no timeline was given. Nothing. Nada.

Yet those men who lead and those who followed trusting in the Lord God would be granted Paradise.

Golux, I believe you wish to be correct/truthful in your statements and I am so very appreciative. It’s important to know who else we believe/know will go to be with the Lord God.

I must admit, golux, it is with sadness I note your usage of the word ‘charming’ when mentioning ‘the latest Hebrew words they learn in Bible Study.’

How unfortunate your arrogance stopped you from perhaps explaining to the Christians the origins of those Hebrew words. I would think you enlightening them would actually have assisted them in understanding your belief system.

[MeanWestTexan]

“From all I’ve read the children of a Jewish woman is considered Jewish....”

This is it. The end. A child of a Jewish mother or a sincere Orthodox convert is Jewish. Forever. No subsequent conversion, back sliding, atheism, Buddism, Islamism, anythingism changes that.

It’s a Covenant made by G-d. G-d is the promisor of said covenant. And it is permanent.

The exact citations are by me, in this thread, above.

It doesn’t matter what anyone’s opinion or belief is — the Torah is the Torah. It’s a black and white issue and doesn’t change.

[MeanWestTexan]

“How unfortunate your arrogance stopped you from perhaps explaining to the Christians the origins of those Hebrew words. I would think you enlightening them would actually have assisted them in understanding your belief system.”

It may not be arrogance.

I lived in a smallish city as one of the few Jewish people in a town.

Jewish people quickly learn to keep theology quiet. Actually, we learned this 1600 years ago. Tends to get ugly.

Or worse, a cocktail party ends up being a mass conversion attempt, one or two folk gets snippy, the Jewish husband has to leave, and the wife is angry.

Or it’s just tiresome. It’s like having to explain Hanukkah and various holidays every year, over-and-over, when you just want to be one of the guys.

And you want a Scotch, not a theology discussion.

If this sounds like the above comes from experience, it does.

[Notthereyet]

From an early age I recall being advised to never speak of Death and Taxes.

Wasn’t until I became an adult (mentally and spiritually) that I fully understood that advice.

Yes, some of the pings do seem to have um, barbs attached to the answers.

Again, so glad this thread was not pulled!

[Notthereyet]

“”“From all I’ve read the children of a Jewish woman is considered Jewish....””
________________________

I did not mean to offend you, MeanWestTexan, nor slight your answer.

The question was being asked of another FReeper based upon his/her belief system. I am interested in the answer he/she would provide because of his/her previous pings.

Please, do not allow my question to offend you. Truly, it wasn’t meant to offend you or the other FReeper.

“It’s a Covenant made by G-d. G-d is the promisor of said covenant. And it is permanent.”

I believe in my heart and soul in that Covenant. He keeps His people safely secure in His plan.

[Notthereyet]

“It may not be arrogance.”
________________________________

I accept your explanation.

I humbly ask for your forgiveness as I could, and should have used better/wiser language in that statement.

I truly am sorry.

It’s like being from the Northeast and living in Texas for 30 years. I still get...um...mocked sounding a bit ‘Yankee’ on certain words. And once that happens all else doesn’t matter.

Please, have a wonderful evening!

[EinNYC]

Oh, my gosh, EinNYC... You are so very angry.

Why, Notthereyet, you noticed? Someone just told me that my religion is nothing but garbage, but THEIR religion--now THERE is a religion for ya! And that I should follow THEIR religion or be damned in hell forever. Well, I'll buy that letter. Rather than buy into a religion based on deceitful statements and all sorts of slight-of-hand, I'll just stick to my plain old Judaism. I don't cave to threats, lies, or Fuller Brush sales techniques---because the belief system of my ancestors is plenty good enough for me.

[Yaelle]

(Not really responding but excellent post)(no need to answer)

[Phinneous]

Swimmin’ the backstroke in the eternal lake of fire... Get your muscle floaties ready!

[af_vet_1981]

> Put in another way, if you were born a Jew but disbelieve in Judaism, are you still a Jew?

I say the answer is a definite “no!”

Is a Jew Who Converts Still Jewish?
By Zalman Nelson

Question:

My sister was baptized and has since married and had a child. My mother claims the child is Jewish, but how could that be? If Judaism is a religion, if someone leaves it, she’s no longer Jewish, right?

Response:

Logically, I would have to agree with you. If Judaism is a religion, then someone who doesn’t believe in the religion should be no longer Jewish. The reality, however, is that it doesn’t work that way.

Throughout the Tanach, we find Jews breaking every facet of their covenant with G‑d, joining and forming all sorts of idolatrous cults and heathen practices. Yet when the prophets chide them, they are called “My people, Israel.”

The Talmud1 focuses in particular on the precedent of a notorious character named Achan, who appears in the story of the fall of Jericho.2 “Israel has sinned,” exclaims G‑d. “They have transgressed My covenant that I commanded them.” Yet in the story’s narration we discover that the lone sinner is Achan, who took from the spoils of Jericho. The Talmud points out that nevertheless Achan is considered “Israel,” and remarks, “Israel, although he has sinned, is still Israel.”

The choice of precedent is poignant and the wording laden with subtle meaning: Achan has broken “My covenant that I have commanded them”—interpreted by the Talmud to mean not only one detail, but the entire covenant of Torah. Yet he remains not only a Jew, but “Israel”—the entirety of the Jewish People in a single individual.

The principle extends not only to genealogical Jews, but converts as well. In Tractate Yevamot3 we learn that once a person has fulfilled all the requirements of a proper conversion, he is considered “like Israel in all matters.” The Talmud explains those last words to mean that even if this convert would return to his pagan ways, “if he marries a Jewish woman, he has the same status as an apostate Jew, and they are considered married.”

Why does the Talmud choose to discuss Jewishness in terms of whether or not a marriage is valid? This is also precise: When it comes to having this Jew slaughter meat for you, or relying upon him in other areas of kosher and similar matters, his status may indeed be the same as that of a non-Jew. But those are technicalities, dependent on extraneous factors. Marriage, however, is the real test of Jewishness. Even if a non-Jew would marry a Jew with a chupah and a rabbi presiding with all the procedures “by the book,” the marriage does not have the validity of a marriage sanctified in accordance with Jewish law. Saying that “they are considered married” is the best Talmudic language available for “Yes, he is still Jewish.”

Based on the above statement of the Talmud, the Jewish Code of Law4 rules that a marriage between a Jewish man and a Jewish woman who “convert out” is completely valid. Therefore, their children are considered Jewish and could also marry other Jews.

Which brings us to your case, where a Jewish woman has joined another religion and married a non-Jew. In this instance, as well, since Jewishness is matrilineal, her children are considered Jewish.5

Apparently, Jewishness is about neither religion nor race. Unlike a race, you can get in, but unlike religion, once you’re in you can’t get out. As with Achan, once you are a part of this people, you are the entire people. As Israel is eternal, so your bond with them is irreversible, unbreakable and eternal.

[otness_e]

A warning to all readers who might be Jewish, the subject matter of this response will be very dicey. I’m no anti-Semite, but I am very wary of the Talmud knowing full well what it teaches.

“Rather than buy into a religion based on deceitful statements and all sorts of slight-of-hand, I’ll just stick to my plain old Judaism.”

Yeah, that’s rich. Babylon Talmudic Judaism was literally founded upon deceitful statements and all sorts of slight-of-hand. I believe it was the Talmud that advocated lying to gentiles, or goyem as the book called them, cheating them out, and even murdering them solely because the Talmudic Jews were entitled to rule over everyone, as you can read here: https://rense.com//general92/talmud.htm Quite frankly, the Talmud from what’s shown isn’t much better or different from the Quran, even encouraging both groups to deceive others to get ahead. Christianity if anything forbade that kind of behavior. And don’t forget, Jesus in the Book of Matthew condemned your Talmud. Brood of Vipers, I believe he called you back in the day. In fact, Nicholas Donin if I recall correctly exposed many of those passages to the Catholic Church when he converted to Catholicism.

But, hey, I can forgive Talmudic Judaism’s appalling treatment of Jesus Christ and Mary in that book. I can even Talmudic Judaism’s use of the Jewish version of Taqqiya. What I cannot forgive, however, is the fact that the Talmud made a utter mockery of God the Father himself with this passage here: http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/salafi/RabbiDebateGodAndGodAdmitsDefeat.htm Making God the Father, who if I must remind you is supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient, dumber than a human being (Rabbi or not, God still lost a debate to a human being), not to mention restrained by mere mortals to such an extent that he most likely isn’t even allowed to pee without a majority vote from the rabbis after the Ten Commandments were supplied on Mt. Sinai, is just contemptible, utterly disrespectful to the person responsible for dragging you guys out of Egypt, and is a very shameful display of God (I’d even go so far as to argue that Muslims had far more respect for their god Allah than Talmudic Judaism does for the God of the Old and New Testament, yes, they’re one and the same.). Heck, if I were in God’s position and that occurred, let’s just say that would have been reason enough for me to not only call off my covenant with Judaism, but to do far worse stuff to them as revenge.

And don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against the Jewish people. While I’d personally prefer they just convert to Christianity, I’ll let them be so long as they don’t do us any harm in any way, are straight with us, and don’t try to stab us in the back or promote stabbing us in the back. Heck, I’m even willing to spare Israel if I have to choose between that and the Middle East. But when they go as far as to pull the same crap that Islam does in the Quran, and worse, make an utter mockery of God the Father, I will NOT stand for it. Here’s my suggestion to you: Give up the Talmud, aka the Oral Torah, in favor of strictly the Written Torah, aka, what we Christians call the Old Testament. At least there, I’ll be satisfied. Now, if you do follow the Written Torah and not the Talmud, feel free to ignore my rant above.

Besides, you want actual deceptive Jews? How about those who adhere to Karl Marx? Those guys tried to get you guys wiped from the face of the Earth simply by virtue of your religion, heck, your entire ethnicity. At least the Messianic Jews actually are trying to save your souls, and aren’t even all that deceptive (Christianity doesn’t even stand for deception, and Judaism before the Talmud came along certainly didn’t stand for it either. Thou Shalt Not Lie/Bear False Witness is one of the Ten Commandments.).

Sorry for having to be very blunt in my reply, but I get very angry when people like you accuse us Christians of being deceptive, especially when conveniently ignoring that the Talmud is a deceptive piece of work that probably causes far more trouble for the Jews than Christians or even Muslims ever have (not that the Muslims are much better, mind you). If you really disliked deception and sleights of hand, you would have followed Nicholas Donin’s example and left Judaism. Heck, do what Yossi Gurvitz did, even: https://youtu.be/YSy6ENVAJlY I know I would have in your position.

And just as an FYI, Judaism itself is not garbage. Heck, Jesus WAS a Jew, so I wouldn’t even dare try to harm you or destroy that religion for that reason alone (in fact, to be honest, Christianity IS the new Judaism, certainly after the Romans destroyed the temple). But the Talmud most certainly IS trash that needs to be destroyed.

[rollo tomasi]

Suetonius, on why Claudius expelled the Jewish people from Rome which backs up what was stated in Acts concerning Aquila.

[Ezekiel]

We just celebrated the 3,331st anniversary of receiving the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai, from G-d’s own mouth (so to speak.) He did not say to believe in a man-god some time in the future.

And yet it seems like just yesterday! Or Monday as it were:

The Supreme Court rejected a case Monday brought by an atheist who wanted to scrub “In God We Trust,” the U.S. motto, from the nation’s currency, claiming it was an entanglement of state and religion.

Justices reject challenge to 'In God We Trust' on U.S. money

1 Kings 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in JerUSAlem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there. (lasum shemi sham)

In regular everyday lingo that's what He's called/named: God.

"Hello, my name is There."

Shibboleth

[Phinneous]

Good one! ;)