PRE- OR POST-TRIB RAPTURE? (ORIGINAL)

The Berean Call ^ | Oct 1, 2003 | Dave Hunt

[dartuser]

In Rev 5, the souls under that alter ask, "How long?", clearly showing God's wrath hasn't started yet. Actually, God's wrath doesn't occur until the first bowl of wrath, right after the seventh and LAST trumpet.

Absolutely false ...

The scroll that contains the seal judgments is opened by the Lamb, and each seal is broken by the Lamb an it institutes that judgment. They are absolutely the wrath of God.

As an example ...

The fifth seal judgment no doubt draws on the exact imagery of Ezekiel 14 ... (judgment by sword, famine, wild beasts, plague) which explicitly states that it is the Sovereign Lord who sends these judgments.

The sixth seal is recognized by unbelievers as Gods wrath ... 6:16 "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of Their wrath has come!" ... Even unbelievers will recognize that what they are experiencing is the wrath of God.

All these factors indicate ALL of the judgments of the tribulation are the wrath of God.

[dartuser]

therefore full filling danials 70 weeks, makes sense to me but I don’t know.

Don't forget those seven infinitives at the beginning of that 70 weeks prophecy ... it lays out the purpose ... and you cannot say any of them have been fulfilled yet for Israel or Jerusalem.

The work of the Lord Jesus has laid the foundation for their fulfillment, but they are certainly not fulfilled yet.

[dartuser]

So if Jesus returned in 70 AD, that must mean that all the chapters in Revelation 4-19 have already been fulfilled and we are at least in Rev. 20 by now.

So what happened to the 1000 years? Its been more than 1000 years since 70 AD.

If this is the kingdom ... I must say ... I am very disappointed.

[ravenwolf]

Yes Jesus said this gospel shall be preached to all the world and
then comes the end, Jesus did not say that it would take place at
that time, we just assume that.

Jesus also could have been referring to the end of the age and that
did happen, Jesus said before some of you standing here now taste of
death you will see the kingdom of God come with power, that happened
on the day of Pentecost.

Jesus also said you must be born of the spirit to see the kigdom of God.

If Jesus said it would happen at that time it did happen, if what we think
should have happened and didn’t we are just trying to decider it wrong.

Let God be true and every man a liar, yes what Jesus said would happen did happen.

[rebel25]

Christ was right the temple was destroyed before 70 ad and rome did cause tribulation during that time but that was not the only time frame he was speaking of because heaven and earth are still here as in the next sentence. Revelation also speaks of new heaven with 12 pearl gates abd being 1500 miles cubed, made of precious stones and no sun as GOD will tabernacle with us.

[lerker]

Whatever happens in the agreement, the abomination of desolation is set up and the sacrifices are ended. All of that happened in 135 AD. Sorry it doesn’t fit what you have been taught, but that is the reality of history.

[lerker]

“The “holy place” is the inner sanctuary ... the holy of holies ... so yes ... it is in the temple.” good grief... don’t you understand the temple was destroyed, the abomination was set up in the holy place which was once in the temple, but when the temple was destroyed, it was no longer “in the temple”. It’s not that hard to understand. It was a building, the building was no longer there.

[lerker]

History is on my side. Daniel says the city and sanctuary would be destroyed and the sacrifices ended. The city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70AD and the sacrifices were ended for good in 135AD. Why deny history?

[Boogieman]

“Jesus did not say that it would take place at
that time, we just assume that”

Well, the whole of Matthew 24 is one single chronological narrative, so there isn’t much to assume. There are 3 sections where Christ talks about events that will be coming before the end, and at the end of the first 2 sections, he makes a statement clarifying that these events precede the end of the world (verse 6: “...but the end is not yet”, verse 8: “...these are the beginning of sorrows”), but at the end of the third section, he makes a statement asserting that this is the point where the end begins (verse 14: “... and then shall the end come”). If we are not meant to read this chronologically then I can’t imagine any other way we can sensibly read it.

“Jesus also could have been referring to the end of the age...”

No, he is answering a specific question from his disciples, which is posed to him in verse 3:

“Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

[dartuser]

Why deny history?

I don't deny history ... I merely claim 135 - 70 is substantially larger than 3.5 ...

Like I said ... the math of preterism never adds up.

The entire eschatological system of preterism interprets both the Bible and history through the lens of one verse ... Matthew 24:34. And all the errors that compound upon that one error get more egregious as you try to explain the objections ... like requiring the date of Revelation to be prior to 70 AD, equating a thunderstorm that Josephus mentions as the fulfillment of the cosmic signs, and totally ignoring the writings of church fathers through the first several centuries, whom did not refer to the fall of Jerusalem as a comprehensive fulfillment of the words of Jesus in Matt. 24 ... nor did they believe that most or all of the second coming was past but rather looked to the future for that fulfillment.

I'm sure I'll see you in the next thread ...

[Boogieman]

“Jesus is our deliverer from the coming wrath.”

Just not for those silly jews that get converted during the tribulation, I guess. They get to suffer the wrath because the promises don’t apply to ALL the church, just those of us who get in before a certain deadline.

/sarc

[Boogieman]

If that were true, then it would be a second AND a third coming, not two second comings. For the life of me, I’ve never been able to find any apostle or early christian ever talking about a third coming.

[Mom MD]

That’s what the ancient Jews thought and that’s why they missed their messiah. They thought He was coming only once. They did not understand He was coming as the suffering servant before His return as the conquering King.

[BornToBeAmerican]

It is almost impossible to break out of the frame of reference that Satan has so neatly encapsulated us today. What did those of old hear when Jesus said in Mat 24:

…34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. 36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Did they believe that the Earth would be destroyed and all upon it. Did they believe that Heaven would also be destroyed.

Well apparently not. Let Scripture speak...

DID HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY?
https://eschatology.com/heavenearthsea.html

This is just one of hundreds of studies on this same topic. It is no different than the 3 days and 3 nights. Look it up and learn that there were two Sabbath’s. It’s is the only way that the events fit regarding Mary. History proves this but Satan would rather “we” believe that Jesus did not mean that he would be “three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40) Even though he said it.

But this might help: To understand that Jesus was crucified on the day of Passover (Wednesday of that year), solves what some people consider to be a conflict in scriptural records. Luke 23:55, 56 say that the women (Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James) went and prepared anointing spices and oils BEFORE the Sabbath. In Mark 16:1 it says that they bought the spices AFTER the Sabbath. The answer to what seems to be differing accounts is in the fact that there are two different Sabbaths being spoken of in these verses. The women both bought and prepared the spices on the same day (Friday), which just so happened to fall between the two Sabbaths on Thursday and Saturday. When Mark says they bought the spices AFTER the Sabbath, it was the special annual Sabbath on Thursday, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. When Luke says they prepared the spices and then rested on the Sabbath, this particular Sabbath was the usual weekly Sabbath that always occurred on the seventh day of the week, which was Saturday.

There is also proof that there were two Sabbaths in Matthew 28:1. Since the word “Sabbath” is mentioned in the singular form in most modern language Bible translations, this could be taken to mean that the traditional Friday crucifixion scenario would be referenced. However, Greek manuscripts render the word “Sabbaths” in the plural form. This fact of the use of plural Sabbaths can be verified using a Greek interlinear translation of the Bible. Therefore, for all of the scriptural records to add up, it has to be concluded that Jesus was crucified on the day that we know now as Wednesday.

More at: https://www.bible-research.org/newsflash/3-days-and-3-nights.html

Question Everything, but never God’s word.

[ravenwolf]

I try not out guess just where to put every thing in it’s place but he did come spiritually.

The end of the world has not come yet so I am convinced he did not say that it would come at
that time, personally I believe we are living in the time of the eighth beast and at the tlme of
Mother of harlots which is the Catholic Church and her daughters the Protestants ( the world religious systems).

I also believe you are right we still have some persecution to go through and the only thing
I disagree with is the seventieth week being broke in two I believe
that all happened back then.

[boatbums]

“Jesus is our deliverer from the coming wrath.”

Just not for those silly jews that get converted during the tribulation, I guess. They get to suffer the wrath because the promises don’t apply to ALL the church, just those of us who get in before a certain deadline. /sarc

There's no need for sarcasm.

God says He is no respecter of persons. Why should unbelieving Jews be spared the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" and not go into the Tribulation the same as Gentile unbelievers? However, there WILL be deliverance for the converted Jews:

At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:1-2)

[boatbums]

Yes, I know all the pre-tribulation arguments well, and I know the tribulation period will be all the unprecedented horror that Jesus told us it would be, and yet I still don’t see TWO second comings of Jesus in Scripture. Those verses in Psalms 91 point out how God protects us. Regardless, time will tell. It’s not a make-or-break salvation issue.

I agree completely that this is not a salvation issue and it is wrong for Christians to rupture fellowship, split churches or bully and mock those who disagree with their specific views. Paul says there will be such things as "disputable matters" and we shouldn't argue over them (Romans 14:1). There's nothing wrong with discussing them, though, and the end times is a topic that we ought to be aware of as we joyfully await Christ's return.

As for TWO second comings, I don't see the Rapture being counted as that for many of the reasons noted in this thread article. Jesus doesn't actually come and set foot upon the earth. We go to MEET Him in the air, I Thessalonians teaches us. The literal Second Coming has Jesus set foot upon the Mount of Olives and it splits from the east to the west (I've read there already is a fault line that runs through it). I love Psalm 91 and call upon its promises often. Nothing that happens to us happens without God's approval and according to His will, but it doesn't mean nothing bad ever happens to us. I believe Scripture clearly lays out that the Tribulation will be God's just wrath upon the ungodly world system. As the Bride of Christ, we are not going to be dragged through this wrath and it is why we are caught up to be with Him before it really gets rolling.

I respect your right to draw your own conclusions about this. God bless you!

[boatbums]

The Seven Seals included war, famine, death and terror.

All things common to the last 2000 years.

During the Tribulation all those things will be hundreds of times worse than it has ever been AND it will be coming from God's poured out wrath rather than man's inhumanity to man or so-called natural disasters. Can you name a time in all of human history when a fourth of the earth is killed by sword, by famine, by plague and by the beasts of the earth (that's 2 BILLION people now)? What about all peace from the earth being taken and men are made to slay one another?

We think we know all about terror, but not this kind"

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of The wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” (Revelation 6:12-17)

[boatbums]

I think the Tribulation will primarily focus on the unconverted Jews seeing as the Two Witnesses as well as the 144,000 (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel) going to the Jews to draw them to faith in Jesus as the Christ, their long awaited Messiah. But, I also believe there WILL be Gentiles who come to faith in Christ and they will also be persecuted and martyred for their faith.

[boatbums]

I do not believe so, because if Jesus said he would return in the same generation as those he was speaking with, only one of two alternatives can occur. 1. He did: He was truthful and fulfilled his promise 2. He didn’t: He was mistaken, a fool or both

Or
3. Jesus didn't say the generation of people he was speaking to at that moment but the generation of people living when Israel became a nation again (the Lesson of the Fig Tree, Matthew 24) would still be alive at the end times Tribulation when Jesus returned.