Fulton Sheen and a Real-Life Miracle

Do you believe in the communion of saints?

Certainly, since Scripture teaches it, along with its manner and manifest limits. Thus the question is, do you believe in going way beyond Scripture and contrary to what constitutes the basis for doctrine, and instead believe something based upon the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility?

Where did the Lord or anyone but pagans ever example or teach the heretical belief of praying to created beings in Heaven ? Never in the gospels, not in Acts and the epistles which reveal how they understood the gospels.

Not in the whole of Scripture, despite the Spirit inspiring the recording of over 200 prayers , and of this being a most basic practice, and despite there always being plenty of created beings to pray to, and occasions for it since the Fall, yet the only prayers or offerings in Scripture to anyone else in the unseen spiritual heaven is by pagans, including to the only Queen of Heaven seen in Scripture.

Failing to find even one example of PTCBIH, and with instruction on who to address in prayer to Heaven only being that of to the Lord, Caths must resort to eisegetical extrapolation, presuming those in Heaven can not only hear/understand all prayers from earth, mental or oral (which only God is shown able to do), but that we are to address them, though again the Holy Spirit never mentions even one example of doing so.

Meanwhile, from what I recall, any two-way communication btwn created beings in Heaven and earth required both to somehow be present in the same location, and was not that of asking them to intercede to God for them, and was very rare.

Note that elders and angels offering prayers (Rv. 5:8; 8:4,5) in memorial - like as in Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15; 16:9, "an offering of memorial" cf. Num. 16:9, - is not that of them being addressed in prayer, nor does it indicate that they had heard them previously, nor is it described as being a regular postal service, but it is one of the things which is a preclude to the final judgments upon the earth, testifying to the persecutions of the saints by the devil and world that it fit to be punished.

For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9, and with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord." (Leviticus 6:15)

Note, do not attempt the sophistry of arguing "nowhere is it forbidden," or extrapolating it out of prayer for each other here, or that "with God all things are possible" which are all specious arguments for a most basic Cath practice that surely would be exampled and taught in Scripture if indeed it was what believers believed in.

And the list goes on .

As a Roman Catholic, here is what we believe. We worship God alone and of course Jesus, who is the face of the Invisible God and is the WORD. We HONOR the Blessed Mother and ask for her intercession, and we also ask for the Saints to intercede for us to God. Hope that clears things up for the protestants on this thread. So, again, we DO NOT worship Mary and the saints.

“Nor would dear Mary accept being made into an idol.”

Idols are deaf and dumb. Mary hears - and so does Fulton Sheen - through the power of God. The evidence of the article cannot be dismissed.

As a Roman Catholic, here is what we believe.

Explain to me when praying, and the choice is to pray to Fulton Sheen or God, why one would pray to Fulton Sheen?

Read the article. Read the Article. Read the Article.

Why would you talk to Mary instead of the Father?

The Lord the God is a Jealous God. ALL honor and glory are His.

For us to idolize Mary is a letdown to Her.

Her Only Son idolized Her or He would not have chosen Her to be His Mother.

“Idols are deaf and dumb. Mary hears -

Chapter and verse??

Also Jesus Christ said do NOT worship him.

Try discussing that on a public forum.

“Praise Jesus”?, Not according to Christ.

“Her Only Son idolized Her

No evidence in Scripture of this.

God doesn’t turn anyone nor anything into an idol.

Answer my question.

Why would you pray to Fulton Sheen instead of God the Father.

Can you answer it?

her stillborn son

There's a big difference between being stillborn and needing resuscitation. Stillborn babies are dead in the womb. Babies, and older humans, who aren't breathing can be resuscitated. It happens all the time.

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Wow, you sound angry. I never heard our priests badmouth ANY religions. I was shocked when a relative told me “Protestants do not like the Catholic Church”; AND, if you go back far enough on the history of Christianity, guess what? You will find that you came from the Catholic Church. Christ’s true Church is the Catholic Church. Now you have 20 thousand plus denominations. Jesus said “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church”, singular!

As a Roman Catholic, here is what we believe.

God speaks often on the issue of what we say and what we do. Not just an RC issue.

There are many in RC that worship Mary. And I would dare say there are many in P that worship the Bible as an artifact, not God.

“Wow, you sound angry. I never heard our priests badmouth ANY religions.”

Was he involved in the inquisition? Perhaps too young.

“I was shocked when a relative told me “Protestants do not like the Catholic Church”; “

Just the theology that perverts the Gospel into a religious system of rituals and merit, instead of its glorious grace.

“AND, if you go back far enough on the history of Christianity, guess what? You will find that you came from the Catholic Church.

God has no grandchildren. Just children. Every believer is related directly to Christ. Perhaps here you are thinking of the reformation and confusing that historic event with Christians today?

”Christ’s true Church is the Catholic Church.”

Simply an assertion without evidence. Sure sounds good though.

“Now you have 20 thousand plus denominations.”

All that matters is whether a local churchy is comprised of saved people, not whether it is under a master franchise.

“ Jesus said “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church”, singular!”

Actually, in Greek, He said “gathering” and not “church.”

Nor was He saying Peter would lead the churches...

Best.

We HONOR the Blessed Mother and ask for her intercession, and we also ask for the Saints to intercede for us to God

See post 21

So, again, we DO NOT worship Mary and the saints.

One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing supernatural attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

Which manner of "adulation" could constitute worship in Scripture (Words for worship in the NT), yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

And despite the Spirit inspiring the recording of about 200 prayers in the Bible, and of this being a most basic practice, the only prayers or offerings in Scripture to anyone else in Heaven is by pagans, including to the only Queen of Heaven see therein, by souls who were as adamant as many Catholics in defending their blasphemous practice:

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes... (Jeremiah 44:16-17)

It should be kept in mind that my objection is not to Mary being honored as the holy chosen vessel to bring forth Christ, but to the excess ascriptions, appelations, exaltation, and adoration (and the manner of exegesis behind it), ascribed to the Catholic Mary, whether officially or by Catholics (with implicit sanction of authority). And which presumes that bowing down to a statute and attributing to the person it represent attributes and glory that are uniquely ascribed to God/Christ in Scripture, including the power to hear in Heaven incessant multitudinous mental prayers addressed to them from earth and respond to them, and imploring such for heavenly aid, would be understood and vindicated as merely being "hyperdulia," and not "latria" (which Rome states is the manner of adoration reserved for God).

Note that many Catholic Marian attributions much parallel even that of Christ:

For in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,

As the the Son of God has a unique unique relationship with the Persons of the Trinity, so also Mary is said to have a unique relationship with all three Persons of the Trinity;
As Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, with a pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father;
As Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which naturally infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture, which even clarifies Israel birthed Christ "according to the flesh, God blessed for ever": Rm. 9:4,5);
As the the Son of God supernaturally, spiritually makes believing souls into children of God, Mary is said to be the mother of Christians in "supernatural and spiritual generation."
As Christ was sinless, so Mary was;
As the Lord remained a virgin, so also Mary;
As the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;
As the Holy Spirit directs believers to be "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith," (Hebrews 12:2) in whom believes are accounted a holy nation, (1 Pt. 2:9) so Catholicism teaches that believers are to "turn their eyes to Mary" in whom "the Church is already the 'all-holy." (CCC 829)
As the Father made Christ Lord over all things, so Mary is said to be enthroned above all creation (all other believers have to wait for their crowns) and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things;
As Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”
As Christ is given all power on Heaven and on earth, so Mary is said to have (showing some restraint) “almost unlimited power;” and showing less restraint, to be "omnipotent" (by grace);
As God the Father made His Divine Son functionally the Lord over the universe, so Mary states, "I command what I will, and introduce whom I will."
As no man comes to the Father but through the Son, so it is taught that no one can come to the Son except through Mary in Heaven;
As no one can obtain mercy, be saved/redeemed or be delivered and know the Father but through the Son, so the same is said of Mary;
As those whom God has chosen will come to Him, so it is said that if Mary wills our salvation, and then we are sure to obtain it.
As the emphasis is upon Christ as the Creator through whom God (the Father) made all things, including Mary, so it is emphasized that uniquely “to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood,” shed for the salvation of mankind, (the logic behind which can lead back to Eve);
As Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also, even all the consequences of sin;
As Christ redeemed mankind (as many as truly believe) with the Father and the Spirit, so it is said of Mary that "we might rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."
As Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.
As all things come from the Father through the Son, so Mary is made to be the dispenser of all grace; that "through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation."
As believers have confidence through Christ, so Mary is extolled as being the foundation of all the believer's confidence.
As the Lord wills all souls to be saved through Christ, so it is said that it is God's will that we obtain everything through Mary.
And as the Lord called souls to come to Him to be given life and salvation, so (in misappropriation of the words of Scripture) it is said of Mary, “He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord;” “that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”
As Christ is the King of the saints and over all kings, (Rv. 15:3; 17:14; 19:16) so Mary is made Queen of Heaven and the greatest saint, and that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise;”
As Christ ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, so is Mary said to be in constant intercession;
as only to God is ascribed the power and privilege of hearing prayer from all flesh, so also is Mary extolled as doing so;
as believers only address God/Christ in prayer to Heaven, including in prostration before Him, so also do Catholics pray to Mary;
as believers only pray to God to have mercy on sinners, so Catholics beseech Mary to do so.
As Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His "real" flesh and blood to be eaten, so it is emphasized that Mary gave Him this, being fashioned out of Mary's pure blood and even being “kneaded with the admixture of her virginal milk,” so that she can say, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5);
And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself!

Mary was a holy, virtuous instrument of God, but of whom Scripture says relatively little, while holy fear ought to restrain ascribing positions, honor, glory and powers to a mortal that God has not revealed as given to them, and or are only revealed as being possessed by God Himself. But like as the Israelites made an instrument of God an object of worship, (Num. 21:8,9; 2Kg. 18:4) Catholics have magnified Mary far beyond what is written and warranted and even allowed, based on what is in Scripture.

In addition, although (technically) Mary is not to be worshiped in the same sense that God is worshiped, yet the distinctions between devotion to Mary and the worship of God are quite fine, and much due to the psychological appeal of a heavenly mother (especially among those for whom Scripture is not supreme), then the historical practice of Catholics has been to exalt Mary above that which is written. As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "By the sixteenth century, as evidenced by the spiritual struggles of the Reformers, the image of Mary had largely eclipsed the centrality of Jesus Christ in the life of believers." (Robert C. Broderick, ed., The Catholic Encyclopedia, revised and updated; NY: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1987, pp.32,33)

The practice of praying to departed saints and Mary was one that developed, helped by pagan influences, for Scripture provides no example of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven by the Lord, and reveals that doing otherwise was a practice of pagans, including to the “Queen of Heaven.” (Jer. 44:17,18,19,25). The Catholic Encyclopedia speculates that a further reinforcement of Marian devotion, “was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. This at least is the common opinion among scholars, though it would perhaps be dangerous to speak too positively. Evidence regarding the popular practice of the early centuries is almost entirely lacking...,” (Catholic Encyclopedia > Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary) Yet, as expected, it imagines this practice came from the apostles and NT church, but which never exampled or instructed it, and instead showed that the believer has immediate access to God in the Divine Christ, (Heb. 10:19), who is the all sufficient and immediate intercessor between God (the Father) and man. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16) To the glory of God

Wow, you sound angry. I never heard our priests badmouth ANY religions.

Then they are unlike RC's here that made such comments as that Protestantism is a false religion, belief in one’s self, who have no faith in Christ, no foundation for their superficial understanding of Christianity, who are by inclination vandals, evil fruit, ignorant, biblically illiterate, typically intellectually dishonest, absolutely alien to Christianity, a false religion, a bizarre and false religion, a mass of sheer rot, a heretical brand of Christianity, who completely reject Christ, belief in one’s self, with no foundation for their understanding of Christianity, and are unable to defend it.

But we do reprove Catholicism here, mostly in response to incessant provocative threads as this one promoting another of distinctive unscriptural RC beliefs. doctrine ,

AND, if you go back far enough on the history of Christianity, guess what? You will find that you came from the Catholic Church. Christ’s true Church is the Catholic Church. You can guess all you like, but the facts are the contrary to that.

For distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation.

Thus Catholicism, Roman or Eastern Orthodox, cannot be the one true church but much a false church which has sadly become as the gates of Hell for multitudes. In contrast, the body of Christ, (Colossians 1:18) is the one true church to which He is married, (Ephesians 5:25) the "household of faith," (Galatians 6:10) for it uniquely only and always consists 100% of true believers, and which spiritual body of Christ is what the Spirit baptizes ever believer into, (1Co. 12:13) while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares, with Catholicism and liberal Protestantism being mostly the latter.

The degree that a church retains and preaches the convicting gospel of grace, of salvation by grave thru heart-purifying, justifying faith, then they are part of the church which the Lord promised would overcome the gates of Hell, that being

As a Roman Catholic, here is what we believe. We worship God alone and of course Jesus, who is the face of the Invisible God and is the WORD. We HONOR the Blessed Mother and ask for her intercession, and we also ask for the Saints to intercede for us to God. Hope that clears things up for the protestants on this thread. So, again, we DO NOT worship Mary and the saints.

Okay, okay my Protestant Friends. I was warned that you guys would throw scripture verses and snide remarks at me. I was just trying to charitably defend my Catholic Faith, and I did.

Okay, okay my Protestant Friends. I was warned that you would throw out bible verses and snide remarks to me. I was just trying to defend my Catholic Faith, and I have done so.

“I was warned that you guys would throw scripture verses and snide remarks at me.”

“Throw”, “snide.”

Why so pejorative, bro??