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To: Elsie; Luircin; metmom

So, Elsie (et alia), you essentially believe that the Holy Spirit (God) inspired St. Paul (Romans 4:1, 4:11, etc.), and inspired the author of the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 4:21), (as well as many other writers of the books of the New Testament), to write something wrong, since what they wrote goes against your own personal, private interpretation of the meaning of the words of Jesus, as recorded in Matthew 23:9.

Let me give you a helpful maxim, which is true always and forever, and should help to guide you for the rest of your life.   Here it goes:

Whenever it comes to a discrepancy or contradiction between the personal interpretation of a biblical text by a man called "Elsie", and a directive of the Holy Spirit (God) to one of the biblical authors to write something seemingly contradictory (like actually having them call various men "father" in the inspired Bible), God is always right, and the man called "Elsie" is always wrong, without exception.   In other words, if a man called "Elsie" interprets something in the Scriptures to mean something that directly contradicts something that God teaches by direct example elsewhere in the Scriptures, that man named Elsie's interpretation is always wrong, and God is always right.

So, obviously, your interpretation of what Jesus was actually saying there has to be wrong, since it involves the Holy Spirit (God) directing various authors of the Holy Scriptures to write something in direct violation of what you personally interpret Jesus to have literally meant when He said to call no one "father".   The truth is, when preaching and teaching, Jesus often used exaggerations and hyperbole, which were obviously not to be taken literally, in order to to make a point in a stronger, more powerful way, as is often done by folks in the Holy Land.   For example, when Jesus said the following, do you think He really meant that they should literally pluck their eyes out?

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."   Matthew 5:29

And when Jesus said the following, do you think He literally meant that all disciples of His should actually hate their fathers, and hate their mothers, and hate their wives, and hate their children, and hate their brothers and sisters, and hate their own life?

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."   Luke 14:26

If that is what He actually meant there, He would be directly contradicting Himself, when He said we should love one another, and that we should honor our father and our mother, as shown in the following texts.

"A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."   John 13:34

"This is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you."   John 15:12

And he said unto him, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."   He saith unto him, "Which?"   Jesus said, "Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."   Matthew 19:17-19

Jesus was obviously speaking hyperbolically in those other texts (as He often did), in order to simply make a point more emphatically.

Here are some additional resources which should help clear up the confusion you have about this question.


Now I have to be gone for a while, so, again, I wish you all a very Happy New Year, and God's blessings!

142 posted on 12/31/2018 1:55:38 PM PST by Songcraft
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To: Songcraft

Your reactions seem angry and condescending.

I’m asking you how exactly you’re supposed to interpret the statement because you can’t ignore it, not asking for a torrent of accusations and bile.

Nice job on grasping the basics of sola scriptura interpretation though.


146 posted on 12/31/2018 3:54:46 PM PST by Luircin
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To: Songcraft
This is my commandment,

Sorry Jesus; but the CHURCH says that I CAN call that fella FATHER if I want to.

In practice; I'm almost FORCED to!

---Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(Hail Mary!!!)

174 posted on 01/01/2019 3:52:26 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Songcraft
Let me give you a helpful maxim, which is true always and forever, and should help to guide you for the rest of your life.

Obedience is better than sacrifice.

1 Samuel 15:22-24

175 posted on 01/01/2019 3:54:32 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Songcraft
Whenever it comes to a discrepancy or contradiction between the personal interpretation of a biblical text by a man called "Augustine", and a directive of the Holy Spirit (God) to one of the biblical authors to write something seemingly contradictory (like actually having them call various men "father" in the inspired Bible), God is always right, and the man called "Basil of Seleucia" is always wrong, without exception.   In other words, if a man called "Bede" interprets something in the Scriptures to mean something that directly contradicts something that God teaches by direct example elsewhere in the Scriptures, that man named Cassiodorus' interpretation is always wrong, and God is always right.
 
 
 Just like the REST of these fellas!!   Cyril of Alexandria,  Origen,   Hilary of Potier...
 

 
As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18 (and less understood), note the following Early Church Fathers promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1:

 
 
 
 

Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

 

Augustine, sermon:

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

 

Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

 

Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

 

Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

 

Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

 

Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

 

Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

 

 

 • Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:

'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.

Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].

Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:

'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455

Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:

Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)

Cyril of Alexandria:

When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.

Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):

“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'

“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)

Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II):

Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.



176 posted on 01/01/2019 4:03:26 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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