Posted on 12/18/2018 6:55:36 AM PST by amessenger4god
...in the meantime, the message for all the detractors should be: No, Pope Francis is not rewriting the word of God" (see, "Pope Francis Calls for Change to 'Lord's Prayer' and Critics Go Mad").
...if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit" (Matthew 15:14, ESV).
Matthew and Luke are the only biblical authors to record the content of Jesus' model prayer to the disciples known throughout the world as "The Lord's Prayer." Luke appears to have a more condensed version, and so, for the sake of clarity and convenience, we will stick with Matthew's gospel for our purposes here.
When you survey the English versions for Matthew 6:13, you will discover that virtually everyone follows the lead of the KJV and translates the Greek word peraismos as "temptation." However, when you look up the word in most Bible lexicons or dictionaries, you'll find that there is a broad range of meaning available.
For example, I have found three primary definitions in the semantic range for peraismos, Strong's 3986:
(1) Trial
(2) Testing
(3) Temptation
As you can see, these words in isolation evoke different imagery even though they are synonymous. Context, as always, is important in order to narrow down which definition in the semantic range is appropriate for any given verse. Therefore, it is possible that some of the confusion surrounding Matthew 6:13 could be resolved if more Christians understood that the ideas of "testing" and "trial" are legitimate English translations for peraismos.
Nevertheless, some will still confuse this verse in the Lord's Prayer with James 1:13. On this alleged contradiction please refer to Dr. Wallace's article linked above. When peraismos is used with God or Satan as the subject, Dr. Wallace makes an important theological point of distinction, "God tests; Satan tempts."
But the Pope along with many others will object, "God would never lead or bring anyone into temptation, that's the Devil's job." Oh, really? So God would never lead, bring, or send someone to be peraismoed [tested, tried, tempted, etc.]? Well, as it turns out, we don't have to go very far to answer that rebuttal. Just turn back a couple of pages to chapter 4:
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted [Grk. peraismos] by the Devil..." (Matthew 4:1, HCSB).
Although the KJV renders [Matt. 6:13] 'deliver us from evil,' the presence of the article indicates not evil in general, but the evil one himself. In the context of Matthew's Gospel, such deliverance from the devil seems to be linked to Jesus' temptation in 4:1-10: Because the Spirit led him into temptation by the evil one, believers now participate in his victory" (in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pg. 233).
...the temptation that the Lord faced was the ultimate temptationthe offer of the entire world on a platter. Jesus can ask the disciples to pray that the Father would not lead them into temptation and that God would deliver them from the evil one precisely because Jesus himself faced the ultimate temptation by the evil one...[i]t is precisely because of Jesus' substitutionary death and life that this prayer can be recited today by Christians with the full assurance that God will answer us. Pope Francis's translation, however, subverts all this...[t]he original text speaks clearly of God leading, not permitting. To tamper with the wording misses the connection with the Lord's temptation."
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death..." (Revelation 2:22-23, NKJV).
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing [Grk. peraismos], that hour which is about to come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 3:10, NASB).
After this I looked, and there in heaven was an open door. The first voice [Jesus] that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, 'Come up here..." (Revelation 4:1, HCSB).
A new covenant where we approach the Throne of Grace through our one and only mediator Jesus Christ. Not priests, nor saints, nor Mary
The Marine part of is more likely to launch into my 27 year immersion in artful profanity but the Holy Spirit has helped me reduce the frequency and amplitude of my more off-color speech. Should my rants slip into something more readily applied during Boot Camp, then at that time I will have to ask your (and God’s) forgiveness.
The original post was a disorganized and incoherent and largely anti-Catholic screed. You should expect that any Catholic above room temperature will take issue - you would likely take issue if I started babbling anti- Protestant tripe. (And if I did so, I would be a blowhard, right?)
Whomever wrote this post imagines himself to be an authority on the Bible, faith and Catholicism. He is, by definition, self-appointed and in addition, pompous and annoying.
That you have decided to support his scribblings is disappointing. It is also disappointing that you also get going with the ad hominems right out of the gate. (”Junior” - really?) it’s also disappointing that this author is yet another “christian” that thinks that best way to faith is to attack other Christians. I’ve seen a lot of that on the FreeRepublic and it is surprising and disappointing.
I am very happy and proud of my Catholic faith - and you should never expect a quiescent response when we’re attacked.
This was posted as an open discussion thread.
Discussion is to be expected.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3713751/posts
The thread is about prayer.
Read the link from Jim Robinson about TROLLS.
When they don’t stick to the topic of the thread and post other things, aren’t they being a TROLL?
I dont believe you made this a Devotional thread, or a Caucus thread, did you?
Maybe you can still change it if you do not want to discuss the topic - or also, you might be able to make it an Ecumenical thread.
Merry Christmas!
Did you just forget to include the other poster who was arguing and being a TROLL???
Not everyone sees it that way.
It's not a prayer thread, per se, as in someone asking prayer as a prayer request.
It's a discussion of what the pope is trying to do in regard to changing the meaning of Scripture. And while the Scripture concerned deal with the Lord's Prayer, it would be no different than if the passage of Scripture were about something else.
Not everyone who has a different opinion than the poster is a troll.
The accusation of *troll* ought not to be used as a weapon with which to silence people.
Ditto that, mom.
AMEN!!!
And yet it wasn’t labeled as a caucys/devotional.
Or could it be considered that someone who accuses others of being a troll is also troll like behavior?
I mean really, just how far could this back and forth accusation be taken?
When everyone is a troll, no one is a troll.
AND........ it wasn’t labeled as a prayer thread either, even though part of the discussion is about a prayer.
Right. Because Scripture is *only* useful when we *like* it.
</s>
It looks like the OP put this out for discussion, not as a caucus/devotion/prayer/ecumenical post, contrary to the opinions of others.
Personally, I hope Mr. Robinson’s message was not to be use as a cudgel to bash, silence, or purge those who disagree with Roman Catholism.
“And lead us not into temptation.”
Makes no sense to me. I’m pleading with God not to lead me into temptation, or Let’s not lead each other into temptation?
I’m not sure if I agree with the Pope’s either, but let’s go back to the original Greek and see what the verse should be.
Would you change your mind if you were proven to be wrong??? Of course you wouldn't...You guys have been shown time and time again and yet you still swallow the same swill yur religiun pours out......
Old Ephraim, a Catholic Saint clearly understood and believed in the pre-Tribulation Rapture as did many of your so-called church Fathers and Doctors...
Ephraim The Syrian
Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD)
“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.
Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!”
For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”
Taken from Here...
Exactly...The thread isn't a prayer thread or even about prayer...It's about the fake religion changing scripture that has been accepted for a couple thousand years...I think WE have been Trolled...It's like watching CNN...
Over 25 Lexicons and 2 Millennium of the best Greek scholars the World has had to offer and now your pope is going to 'one-up' 'em???
I just said, let’s go back to the original Greek text and see what it says... “Lead us not into temptation.” You tell me what it means.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.