A rendering of the Diocese of Orange's Our Lady of La Vang Shrine. Image courtesy of Torrence Architects
Posted on 11/25/2018 7:06:58 AM PST by marshmallow
A rendering of the Diocese of Orange's Our Lady of La Vang Shrine. Image courtesy of Torrence Architects
GARDEN GROVE, Calif. (RNS) — Like most Vietnamese-American Catholics, Elysabeth Nguyen grew up hearing stories of Our Lady of La Vang, who is said to have saved her people from persecution.
The Marian apparition is said to have appeared in the late 1700s to a group of Catholics fleeing persecution in Vietnam. She then became a centerpiece of Catholic faith in the country, and after the fall of Saigon in 1975 — when more than a million Vietnamese became refugees — her intercession was credited with sparing the lives of her devotees. Churches named for the La Vang virgin are now thought to be as numerous in the United States as those dedicated to the apparitions at Fatima or Lourdes.
Now Nguyen and a group of Vietnamese-American Catholics in Orange County, Calif., home to the largest Vietnamese Catholic community outside Vietnam, are leading the development of the United States’ first major stand-alone shrine to Our Lady of La Vang.
The multi-million-dollar shrine, located at the Catholic Diocese of Orange’s Christ Cathedral in Garden Grove, will offer the 100,000 Vietnamese-American Catholics in the diocese a gathering place and, its builders expect, an international pilgrimage site. The diocese broke ground on the project in October.
“To have a shrine here reminds them of the homeland, of how grateful they are to be here, and the fruits and blessings they’ve had since coming to this country,” said Nguyen, project manager for the La Vang Shrine Committee with the Diocese of Orange.
(Excerpt) Read more at religionnews.com ...
Continuing to prove my observation that it is the one who is losing the argument resorts to the personal attack and/or profanity.
“You’re comparing apples and oranges with the Scapular and the cloth which touched Peter.”
No, it’s oranges to oranges.
Cloth.
God used it as He willed.
Cloth.
God uses it as He willed.
Oranges to oranges.
“You’re still engaged in idolatry no matter how you slice it.”
No one is worshipping the cloth. No one is worshipping the scapular. There is no idolatry at all.
Of all the errors you’ve made, this is probably one of the biggest.
“Of all the errors you’ve made, this is probably one of the biggest.”
You’re the only one making errors here.
I'll see if you can find it.
“Dude...the error is in front of you. You’d never let anyone get away with the error you’ve made.”
The error is entirely yours - as others have pointed out to you.
“I’ll see if you can find it.”
Oh, I did. Your error is the error. It’s the only error between us.
But you've still not seen your error.
If your error is allowed you have undone one of the RCC's reasoning behind the Immaculate Conception.
Let's see if you can figure it out.
“That you continue to hide behind the opinion of others to defend your idolatry is comical.”
That you continue to deny the utter and complete falsity of your accusations of idolatry would be comical if not so obviously sinful.
“But you’ve still not seen your error.”
The error is entirely yours.
“If your error is allowed you have undone one of the RCC’s reasoning behind the Immaculate Conception.”
Yet another failed and false accusation on your part. There will be more, of course, because you routinely post falsehoods, but as with all of your other false accusations you will include no evidence, no sound argument, and no logical thoughts.
“Let’s see if you can figure it out.”
Let’s see if you can go without posting a falsehood - certainly not for long in any case.
Vlad, your idolatry is very disappointing.
With all of the education you claim to have, your lack of understanding of the Scriptures on the complete payment for all of our sins by Christ on the Cross is evident.
I hope one day you will come to the point where you place your complete trust in Christ...and only Christ, for your salvation.
He will not desert you nor will He forsake you.
Jesus stands ready to save you today....if you will believe in Him.
I'll leave you with this:
1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
4“And you know the way where I am going.” 5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:1-6 NASB
“I’m willing to bet you also have a Miraculous Medal as well....in addition to your piece of cloth you think, or once thought, could save you from the “hell-fire”.”
I may own one because I think a friend gave me one some years ago, but I’ve never been particularly interested in the Miraculous Medal in general. If I have any scapulars at all, they came with a rosary. I don’t even know if I have one. I know of no one who believes merely having one or wearing one will save him or her from “hell-fire”. As usual you’re just making things up. After all anyone with any intelligence - which leaves out all anti-Catholics of course - would easily learn this:
“The Brown Scapular is not:
a magical charm to protect you
an automatic guarantee of salvation
an excuse for not living up to the demands of the Christian life.” http://www.freebrownscapular.com/brown_scapular_faqs.html
“Who knows...maybe you still think it can.”
I never thought that in the first place. I have never known anyone who did. Do you ever get embarrassed at being wrong at every turn?
“Vlad, your idolatry is very disappointing.”
So, in other words, you’re disappointed in nothing - since I have no idolatry. Your errors are very disappointing and there is so much in your posts that is erroneous.
“With all of the education you claim to have, your lack of understanding of the Scriptures on the complete payment for all of our sins by Christ on the Cross is evident.”
Wow, you’re wrong again. I do know, in fact, the Christ satisfied all that needed to be satisfied to fully ransom us. Your posts are gaffe-tastic. Seriously, you literally cannot post more than a handful of sentences without inventing and posting numerous errors all your own.
“I hope one day you will come to the point where you place your complete trust in Christ...and only Christ, for your salvation.”
I already did. I still do. Yet another error on your part. Wait. Let’s go back and count your errors in this one post thus far. . . 8. You have made 8 errors so far. Astounding. Eight errors in 97 words so far. That’s one error every 12 words!
“He will not desert you nor will He forsake you.”
That’s the first thing you’ve gotten right. It took you 107 words to finally say something that is true.
“Jesus stands ready to save you today....if you will believe in Him.”
I always have believed in Him - since I was a small child. So, according to you, I am saved by Jesus. Yet you falsely attack me for idolatry even though I worship no one and nothing other than the Trinity.
“I’ll leave you with this:”
And I’ll leave you with this (Wisdom of Ben Sira 51:1-12):
I give you thanks, Lord and King,
I praise you, God my savior!
I declare your name, refuge of my life,
because you have ransomed my life from death;
You held back my body from the pit,
and delivered my foot from the power of Sheol.
You have preserved me from the scourge of the slanderous tongue, and from the lips of those who went over to falsehood.
You were with me against those who rise up against me;
You have rescued me according to your abundant mercy
From the snare of those who look for my downfall,
and from the power of those who seek my life.
From many dangers you have saved me,
from flames that beset me on every side,
From the midst of fire till there was not a whiff of it,
from the deep belly of Sheol,
From deceiving lips and painters of lies,
from the arrows of a treacherous tongue.
I was at the point of death,
my life was nearing the depths of Sheol;
I turned every way, but there was no one to help;
I looked for support but there was none.
Then I remembered the mercies of the Lord,
his acts of kindness through ages past;
For he saves those who take refuge in him,
and rescues them from every evil.
So I raised my voice from the grave;
from the gates of Sheol I cried for help.
I called out: Lord, you are my Father,
my champion, my savior!
Do not abandon me in time of trouble,
in the midst of storms and dangers.
I will always praise your name
and remember you in prayer!
Then the Lord heard my voice,
and listened to my appeal.
He saved me from every evil
and preserved me in time of trouble.
For this reason I thank and praise him;
I bless the name of the Lord.
Did you throw it away?
[I did wear a scapular for a brief time many years ago.]
Your "ticket" out of "purgatory" and the eternal fire?
I know of no one who believes merely having one or wearing one will save him or her from “hell-fire”.
Just having one does the Roman Catholic no good....one has to wear it continuously.
Yet that is what the apparition told St. Simon Stock...“This shall be a privilege for you and all Carmelites, that anyone dying in this habit shall not suffer eternal fire.”
Apparently a lot of Roman Catholics, you included, believed the message.
In the year 1251, in the town of Aylesford in England, Our Lady appeared to St. Simon Stock, a Carmelite. She handed him a brown woolen scapular and said, “This shall be a privilege for you and all Carmelites, that anyone dying in this habit shall not suffer eternal fire.” In time, the Church extended this magnificent privilege to all the laity who are willing to be invested in the Brown Scapular of the Carmelites and who perpetually wear it.
The Blessed Virgin of Mount Carmel has promised to save those who wear the scapular from the fires of hell; She will also shorten their stay in purgatory if they should pass from this world still owing some debt of punishment. This promise is found in a Bull of Pope John XXII. The Blessed Virgin appeared to him and, speaking of those who wear the Brown Scapular, said, “I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in purgatory I shall free so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting.”
The Blessed Virgin assigned certain conditions which must be fulfilled: 1.Wear the Brown Scapular continuously.
2.Observe chastity according to one’s state in life (married/single).
3.Recite daily the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin OR Observe the fasts of the Church together with abstaining from meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays OR With permission of a priest, say five decades of Our Lady’s Most Holy Rosary OR With permission of a priest, substitute some other good work.
http://www.sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapular-information.php
That you're having to explain the apparition's promises are not what they say they are is comical. It's a pathetic attempt to cover up, or to continue to deny the idolatry that is promoted by Roman Catholicism.
And you participated in it....knowing what the Scapular was all about.
It is yet another work that Roman Catholics have believed they can do.
None of this mess is supported by the New Testament.
“Did you throw it away?”
Yes, but not in the trash. You’re supposed to burn them or bury them. I simply turned it into my parish so they could dispose of it properly.
“Your “ticket” out of “purgatory” and the eternal fire?”
Is Christ’s grace. Purgatory is powered by Christ’s grace. The only way to avoid hell is Christ’s grace.
“Just having one does the Roman Catholic no good....one has to wear it continuously.”
The first benefit to having one - whether you wear or not - is that it helps remind you of God and His love for you. If you wear it, the reminder is more constant.
“Yet that is what the apparition told St. Simon Stock...“This shall be a privilege for you and all Carmelites, that anyone dying in this habit shall not suffer eternal fire.””
And all Catholics understand that only to mean if someone is already living a life of faith. And the scapular I wore was not the brown scapular in any case so your failure is manifest yet again. You’re simply too ignorant about scapulars to make a good point.
“Apparently a lot of Roman Catholics, you included, believed the message.”
Again, Catholics understand it only to mean if someone is already living a life of faith.
“... invested in the Brown Scapular of the Carmelites and who perpetually wear it.”
Again, you can’t even get the scapular right.
“The Blessed Virgin of Mount Carmel has promised to save those who wear the scapular from the fires of hell; She will also shorten their stay in purgatory if they should pass from this world still owing some debt of punishment. This promise is found in a Bull of Pope John XXII. The Blessed Virgin appeared to him and, speaking of those who wear the Brown Scapular, said, “I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in purgatory I shall free so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting.””
And again, as I posted before - but which you will ignore because it is evidence you cannot distort:
“The Brown Scapular is not:
a magical charm to protect you
an automatic guarantee of salvation
an excuse for not living up to the demands of the Christian life.” http://www.freebrownscapular.com/brown_scapular_faqs.html
“The Blessed Virgin assigned certain conditions which must be fulfilled:”
Which in itself shows you’re wrong. After all you have been insisting, “ piece of cloth you think, or once thought, could save you from the “hell-fire”.” If we must be reminded of God constantly - by wearing the scapular constantly, and observe chastity, and pray daily, or observe the fasts of the Church, or other prayers and charitable actions - THEN WE MUST LIVE A LIFE OF FAITH.
What you posted proves my point. As always your repeated failures are the best and easiest help anyone could supply.
“That you’re having to explain the apparition’s promises are not what they say they are is comical.”
What they are a synopsis or living the Christian life.
“It’s a pathetic attempt to cover up, or to continue to deny the idolatry that is promoted by Roman Catholicism.”
There is no idolatry. There is only your repeated failure to make a case for it.
Again:
“The Brown Scapular is not:
a magical charm to protect you
an automatic guarantee of salvation
an excuse for not living up to the demands of the Christian life.” http://www.freebrownscapular.com/brown_scapular_faqs.html
“And you participated in it....knowing what the Scapular was all about.”
Once again, not the same scapular. But why should you actually get anything right? Let’s go back and count your errors so far, by the way...9. You made nine mistakes so far. Incredible.
“It is yet another work that Roman Catholics have believed they can do.”
10. Ten mistakes. Let’s see whose work it really is:
“It is a sign which stands for the decision to:
-follow Jesus like Mary
-be open to God and to His Will
-be guided by faith, hope and love
-to pray at all times
-to discover God’s presence in all that happens around us”
It’s God’s work. We just need to be open to it.
“None of this mess is supported by the New Testament.”
The New Testament is God working with human words to convict our hearts about His Son. The scapular is God working with man-made cloth to help us to follow Jesus like Mary, be open to God and to His Will, be guided by faith, hope and love, to pray at all times, and to discover God’s presence in all that happens around us.
11. You made at least 11 mistakes in one post.
Keep denying the idolatry. Mormons are convinced they’re right as well.
I’ll always remember you bought into the idolatry of the scapular.
. I think we’ve about exhausted this conversation.
Have a good one vlad.
I invoke the Rules of debate with you.
I guess you have to commit the errors you have to defend your idolatry.
Which in itself shows you’re wrong. After all you have been insisting,
You do realize that was taken straight from the website: http://www.sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapular-information.php
This is a Roman Catholic sponsored website.
I'll re-post these again:
The Blessed Virgin assigned certain conditions which must be fulfilled:
Wear the Brown Scapular continuously.
Observe chastity according to one’s state in life (married/single).
Recite daily the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin OR Observe the fasts of the Church together with abstaining from meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays OR With permission of a priest, say five decades of Our Lady’s Most Holy Rosary OR With permission of a priest, substitute some other good work.
And all Catholics understand that only to mean if someone is already living a life of faith. And the scapular I wore was not the brown scapular in any case so your failure is manifest yet again.
Yet the link you provided was to the brown scapular http://www.freebrownscapular.com/brown_scapular_faqs.html
I can only work with the info you give.
You're not even sure if you do or don't have a scapular....If I have any scapulars at all, they came with a rosary. I don’t even know if I have one.
Then you admitted you threw the thing away....“Did you throw it away?”
Yes, but not in the trash.
So you either have one or you don't...which is it?
You're getting tangled up in your fabrications, vlad.
All of the information I posted about the scapular was from a roman catholic website.
From the website you provided there is this false teaching:
At Fatima, Our Lady had confirmed St. Dominic’s Prophecy as recorded by Fr. Marianus Ventimiglia. Holding the Rosary and the Scapular, She had come to say: "ONLY THE BLESSED VIRGIN CAN SAVE YOU." And She promised the conversion of Russia and world peace if Her requests would be heard.
Contrasted with the New Testament:
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6 NASB
In 1950 Pope Pius XII wrote these famous words concerning the scapular: "Take this scapular which Our Lady has given as a sign of consecration to her Immaculate Heart. Go out and convince the world that it must be dedicated to the Blessed Virgin if it will find peace. Go out and through this scapular re-dedicate families especially to the Holy Mother of God, who has shown her graces so abundantly through this scapular."
NO WHERE in the NT are believers in Christ ever commanded to "devote" themselves to anyone other than Christ.
This, like the false teachings of the apparitions, is in contradiction of the New Testament.
Only faith in Christ can save a person.
Bottom line is all of this mess with the apparitions is in contradiction of the New Testament. This is what happens when you depart from the authority of the Scripture.
If you believe these false messages from these apparitions you, and any other Roman Catholic, have departed from the Gospel as Paul noted:
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! Galatians 1:6-9 NASB
You can have the last word.
I will no longer comment on this.
My prayer is you will come to faith in Christ and only Christ and trust in Him for your salvation.
“You do realize that was taken straight from the website:”
You do realize that changes none of the truth I posted.
“This is a Roman Catholic sponsored website.”
Which changes exactly nothing of what I said.
“I’ll re-post these again:”
Even though none of it changes the truth of what I said.
“The Blessed Virgin assigned certain conditions which must be fulfilled:”
And everything is predicated upon faith in Christ no matter what.
As I have posted – AND WHICH YOU HAVE REFUSED TO DEAL WITH ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS SO FAR:
“The Brown Scapular is not:
a magical charm to protect you
an automatic guarantee of salvation
an excuse for not living up to the demands of the Christian life.” http://www.freebrownscapular.com/brown_scapular_faqs.html
“Yet the link you provided was to the brown scapular
http://www.freebrownscapular.com/brown_scapular_faqs.html”;
Which is exactly what you’ve been talking about all along so it was perfectly appropriate, perfectly accurate, perfectly precise to post info and a link to site about the brown scapular. What part of that do you not understand?
“I can only work with the info you give.”
If that were true, then you would only be posting about what I posted – and you’re not. Also, if you “can only work with the info you give” you would actually be doing it in regard to what I actually posted. . . but you’re not. You keep avoiding it.
“You’re not even sure if you do or don’t have a scapular”
I own many things. I might very well have a brown scapular. Why is it so surprising to you that someone might not know for sure if they have a small item somewhere among their possessions?
“Then you admitted you threw the thing away”
Learn to read. I wrote: “You’re supposed to burn them or bury them. I simply turned it into my parish so they could dispose of it properly.”
“So you either have one or you don’t...which is it?”
I don’t know. Again, you often get them when you buy a rosary so I might very well have one, but I don’t know for certain if I do.
“You’re getting tangled up in your fabrications, vlad.”
I made no fabrications at all. You keep making things up and they’re always wrong. I disposed of the scapular I once had. I did not throw it in the trash. I turned it into my parish with literally had a collection box for such things so they could be properly disposed. (Latin Mass communities almost always do have such a collection place for old items that cannot be simply thrown in the trash just like VFWs collect American flags to be burned since they’re not supposed to be thrown out in the trash either. Any person legitimately interested in truth could find this out, but you don’t seem to be interested in the truth at all. Your interest seems to lag so much that you falsely accuse me of “fabrications” when I have not made a single one.
“All of the information I posted about the scapular was from a roman catholic website.”
And none of it contradicts what I have said. I, unlike you, actually post all the necessary information while you don’t.
“From the website you provided there is this false teaching:”
Your opinion – baseless as always – doesn’t interest me in the slightest. Perhaps if you had ever shown an interest in learning the truth rather than falsely accusing people of fabrications it might be different. Oh, you can falsely claiming you’re basing your opinion on the New Testament but you’re really just basing it on your opinion of the New Testament.
“NO WHERE in the NT are believers in Christ ever commanded to “devote” themselves to anyone other than Christ.”
Actually, you might want to read Acts 2:42. They devoted themselves to the Apostles teachings and to fellowship and so on.
“This, like the false teachings of the apparitions, is in contradiction of the New Testament.”
No, you just misunderstand both – as Acts 2:42 shows.
“Only faith in Christ can save a person.”
Agreed. And that’s what the Faith teaches. Mary gathers people to her Son not to herself alone. https://cardinalsblog.adw.org/2013/08/07/mary-bringing-people-to-jesus/
“You can have the last word.”
Jesus will have the last word – and it won’t be in your favor. It might be if you were to actually tell the truth for a change rather than falsely accusing others of “fabrications” but that isn’t your way.
“I will no longer comment on this.”
Yes, you will. You can’t help yourself.
“My prayer is you will come to faith in Christ and only Christ and trust in Him for your salvation.”
Your prayer was granted many years ago. I hope that you too will one day come to know Christ – but your willingness to falsely accuse others of things that you yourself are the only one doing shows otherwise.
“You do realize you’ve made a whopper of an error....but your ego won’t allow you to admit it.....look for it. This is is also right in front of you.”
No, actually I made no mistake in content at all.
“I invoke the Rules of debate with you.”
Hilarious. No, you’ll just resort to making false accusations. You always do. You have no idea what a debate is apparently.
“I guess you have to commit the errors you have to defend your idolatry.”
I have no idolatry, didn’t defend any idolatry and committed no errors. You, however, commit so many errors that it becomes difficult to count them all.
“Your take on the purpose and message of the scapular is shall we say interesting.”
Your take on the purpose and message of the scapular is dishonest. There’s no “shall we say” about that either.
“Keep denying the idolatry. Mormons are convinced they’re right as well.”
The Mormons made up their religion in the 1820s. Christ founded mine. There’s no idolatry there.
“I’ll always remember you bought into the idolatry of the scapular.”
I’ll always know you were dishonest in saying that.
“I think we’ve about exhausted this conversation.”
Perhaps all those false accusations you made are weighing heavily on your conscience.
“Have a good one vlad.”
I did. I heard a wonderful talk by a former Protestant who became a Catholic three years ago. One of the reasons he became a Catholic is that he discovered he had been lied to for 35 years as a Protestant about what Catholics believed. He used to be deceived by people who make false accusations like you do, but not any more.
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