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Why Every Christian, Not Just Catholics, Should Be Very Worried About The Catholic Sex Scandal
The Federalist ^ | 09/17/2018 | By Willis L. Krumholz and Robert Delahunty

Posted on 09/17/2018 11:01:08 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

The rapidly unfolding crisis in the Roman Catholic Church is not a matter of concern to Catholics alone. Its true dimensions have yet to be measured, but we think it will prove to be a crisis on the scale of the Protestant Reformation, which began just over 500 years ago — an earthquake of 9.5 on the Richter scale. If so, resolution of the crisis will take decades to work through.

Resolution and absolution will require serious effort, and most likely require deep, structural reforms. Even if we are mistaken, the Catholic crisis is of such a magnitude that Christians of all denominations must take a serious interest in it.

We are both evangelical Christians with strong ties to the Catholic Church and deep respect for it. One of us was raised as a Catholic, was educated at Catholic primary and secondary schools, and has taught for the past 14 years at a Catholic law school; the other is a graduate of the law school and the business school of that Catholic university, and has many Catholic family members.

We also care deeply about our many Catholic friends, and the health of the Roman Catholic Church, which is an enormous force for good in this world. We also believe that what happens with the Catholic Church will affect Christianity worldwide. In other words, we have a stake in the matter.

Non-Catholics Should Pay Attention

Some Catholics may regard the crisis in their church as a purely internal matter, and consider outside commentary unwelcome and intrusive, even if it is well-meant. Likewise, many non-Catholic Christians may assume the Catholic crisis does not affect them at all, and perhaps even find in that crisis confirmation for their darkest views of Catholicism.

We do not accept that position. Non-Catholic Christians should take an active part in the conversation about the Catholic crisis. While they must be unfailingly tactful and sympathetic, they should also be as critical as is necessary given what is at stake. The well-known writer Rod Dreher, formerly a Catholic and now Eastern Orthodox, has posted frequently on the Catholic crisis, and is a magnificent model for other non-Catholic Christians to follow.

Among many reasons for non-Catholic interventions, three stand out in our minds.

1. The Victims

First, every Christian has a compelling obligation to protect the weak and vulnerable to the greatest extent possible. The victims of clerical sex abuse in the Catholic Church (as elsewhere) have often been children. While many victims have been compensated — if “compensation” for such injuries is really possible — and the Catholic Church in many places has instituted practices to guard against future abuse, it remains necessary to speak on behalf of those who have been victimized and those who may still be at risk.

All Christians, especially Catholics, should be angry. It is unbearable to think of what has been done “to the least of these” by those claiming to speak in the name of Christ. Many of the children targeted and abused came from broken and dysfunctional homes. Many are fatherless.

The church is charged with mending the emptiness that a broken family brings, not violently shattering a child’s world. God is the father to the fatherless. What would Christ, who overturned tables at the temple and chased out the moneychangers with a whip, do to those who sexually molest his children?

Far too many in the church hierarchy, including the pope, are not sufficiently angry. For example, this coming January, Cardinal Barbarin, the archbishop of Lyons in France, will be standing trial for allegedly covering up the crimes of a local priest who, in the 1980s, sexually abused Boy Scouts. A local priest has gathered more than 100,000 signatures to petition the pope to remove this cardinal.

Thus far, however, Pope Francis seems not to have responded to that petition. However, in 2016, despite knowing of the allegations against the cardinal, and apparently without meeting or hearing the victims of the priest’s abuse, Pope Francis praised Barbarin as “brave.” He also has not ordered a canonical proceeding against him.

We are not prejudging Barbarin’s guilt or innocence: that depends on the outcome of his case in January. But we think it is fair to say that Pope Francis’ handling of the affair indicates that he is — at best — over-eager to defend his hierarchy and insufficiently attentive to those who have suffered at their hands.

The pope is not the only member of the Catholic hierarchy who seems simply unable to register the severity of the injuries they cause to their victims, and others at risk from them. Recently, on a visit to a seminary, Chicago Cardinal Blase Cupich, a Francis appointee, answered one anguished young candidate for the priesthood by saying, “While the church’s ‘agenda’ certainly involves protecting kids from harm, ‘we have a bigger agenda than to be distracted by all of this.’” His audience was reportedly dumbfounded: Surely the problem of sexual abuse of seminaries and children is more than a “distraction?”

In a similar vein, Cardinal Oscar Maradiaga of Honduras has excoriated a group of 50 Honduran seminarians for petitioning the Vatican to correct homosexual abuses going on in their seminary. We apparently are to believe that 50 seminaries are spreading malicious lies, while Madariaga, whose top aide resigned last July in the wake of charges of sexual and financial misconduct, is only speaking the truth.

Moreover, the victims of clerical abuse and the hierarchical concealment of them are not limited to those who have personally suffered sexual affronts. The financial costs to the Catholic Church of litigating and settling abuse cases have been staggering, and are now likely to escalate much higher. In 2015, the National Catholic Reporter found that the church had incurred $4 billion since 1950 in costs related to clerical sex abuse.

Research has also found that the church lost about $2.3 billion annually over the last 30 years due to scandal-related consequences, in the form of lost membership, and diverted giving. Specifically, there is a notable drop in giving in areas rocked by abuse. This makes sense. Why should good people give to pay for bad things?

Abuse litigation in the Los Angeles Archdiocese alone cost $740 million. Yet the former archbishop of Los Angeles, Cardinal Roger Mahony, under whose tenure (1985-2011) there were 500 alleged victims, is still considered a “priest in good standing” and has not been demoted by the pope.

These amounts will likely rise significantly in the wake of the recent report by a Pennsylvania grand jury detailing abuse in most (but not all) of that state’s Catholic dioceses, the overwhelming likelihood that similar investigations will occur in other states, and the risk that statutes of limitations will be amended to expose the Catholic Church to greater liability.

That means the American Catholic Church has had, and will have, far fewer resources to help the poor, to care for the sick, to shelter the homeless, and to educate children. These are victims too.

2. Concern for Fellow Christians

Second, even if you happen not to be a Catholic, surely you have Catholic family members, spouses, close friends, or colleagues who are Catholics. Almost half of the U.S. population has a “strong” connection to the Catholic Church. We have often found the Catholics closest to us to be dismayed by the situation in their church — angry, stunned, confused, or even in denial. Fellow Christians should share their agony.

The other Christian churches should want a healthy, robust Catholic Church, not the gravely weakened one of the present. American Catholicism was losing members alarmingly even before the current phase of the Catholic crisis. It is said that the second largest American denomination, after the Catholic Church, is ex-Catholics.

Not all of that decline is due to the clerical scandals; the general re-paganization of American society has surely played its part. But it seems likely that many former Catholics have abandoned their church (or at least are boycotting it) because of the scandals. The abuse scandals may also be playing a role in this re-paganization — after all, abuse of young boys was a pagan practice that early Christianity condemned and sought to stamp out.

In light of all this, non-Catholic Christians may be increasingly tempted to view Catholicism as a kind of pariah church within global Christianity. But that would not only be uncharitable; it would be unwise. To a great extent, the reputation of the Christian faith itself is besmirched when a large Christian denomination is engulfed in continuing scandals.

3. The Risk to Religious Liberty

When a large corporate body proves unable to govern itself, the chances are high that the government will step in. We saw this when financial institutions considered “too big to fail” were either shuttered by the government or subjected to deeply intrusive government regulation. The Catholic Church is heading towards the same predicament. Unless it can prove, very rapidly, that it is capable of managing its own affairs, it will come under increasing governmental scrutiny and control. Thereby it will pose a danger to the religious liberties of us all.

Already, the American Catholic Church is under the regulatory microscope. We’ve mentioned the stunning grand jury report from Pennsylvania. Attorneys general in five other states — Illinois, New York, Nebraska, New Mexico, Missouri, and now Kentucky — have been quick to take the cue.

These investigations may well reveal problems as deep, intractable, and serious as those discovered in Pennsylvania. That is, the systematic abuse of children was known to be occurring, and no one did anything about it.

Federal and state courts have already been involved, e.g., in diocesan bankruptcy cases. They are now likely to be trying larger numbers of criminal cases related to the abuse scandals, including some against ranking Catholic prelates. There is even a possibility that the Department of Justice may launch an anti-racketeering suit against the American Catholic Church.

Yes, there is a sturdy tradition of religious liberty in this country, and it enjoys constitutional protection in the First Amendment. But in the past several years, that tradition has been weakening, and government has asserted broader power to control decisions that churches once considered their own.

The Obama administration’s “contraception mandate” is a case in point. Given that growing numbers of Americans have severed their affiliations to any religion or church, the public (and the courts) may grow increasingly indifferent to arguments of behalf of religious liberty, and come to regard governmental regulation of all churches with greater acceptance. These trends will be aggravated if the largest American denomination seems scandal-ridden and unable to right itself. That makes the problems of the Catholic Church a matter of the highest concern for us all.

Gazing Into the Abyss

It is absolutely essential that Catholics grasp the depth of this crisis. As we have said, we think it will become as severe and as comprehensive as the crisis of the Protestant Reformation 500 years ago. With remarkable swiftness, Catholicism simply collapsed in what had been Catholic strongholds — most of Germany, Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Switzerland, England, Scotland, and very nearly France. In recent decades, Catholicism has likewise lost its grip in what had been bastions — like French Canada, Spain, Ireland, and Brazil.

Forty years ago, virtually the entire population of southern Ireland turned out to welcome Pope John Paul II. A few weeks ago, the Irish population essentially shunned the visiting Pope Francis, and the Irish prime minister gave him a stern lecture on his church’s reduced place in that country. What would St. Patrick, who, despite just escaping from slavery in pagan Ireland, returned to the island after hearing the screams of the damned in his dreams, think of the church today?

As goes Ireland, so will go the rest of Roman Catholic Christendom. The church in Germany has been rocked by scandal and there are thousands of known-victims. Already, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church is under judgment in Chile, the United States, Australia, France, and Honduras. The crisis has long since gone global.

In fact, as the Catholic scholar Benjamin Wiker has argued, the current crisis is more threatening for the Catholic Church than the Protestant Reformation 500 years ago. For one thing, the Reformation began in a society that was still overwhelmingly Christian. Some historians of the pre-Reformation period even argue that Christian piety was deepening and broadening in the run-up to the Reformation, and that the Christian laity was already assuming a more prominent role in managing church affairs (a development greatly accelerated by Lutherans and Calvinists). But the contemporary Western world seems rapidly to be losing whatever residual Christianity was left in it. That makes a Catholic recovery more problematic.

Second, the internet spreads news of the Catholic crisis within seconds into every house. Everyone knows everything. Pope Francis, who seems to prefer talking about plastics in our oceans over the systemic problem of child abuse, may count on a friendly and collaborative media to ignore or downplay the charges Archbishop Vigano recently brought personally against him. But even if information leaks out drip by drip, the Catholic hierarchy and the Vatican can no longer safely rely on secrecy and on silence to cover their misdeeds.

Just as the printing press was a major force in the spread of the Reformation in Martin Luther’s Germany, so internet journalism (and, who knows, even the mainstream media when the pope is no longer useful to their agenda) will sooner or later force the disclosure of the facts. So it will not do for Catholics simply to say, “We have been through this before. We will make it through again.” In the end, that belief may be vindicated. We sincerely hope it is. But in the meanwhile, they must be energetically fashioning responses that are truly commensurate to this crisis.

Willis L. Krumholz lives in Minneapolis, Minnesota. He is a JD/MBA graduate from the University of St. Thomas, and works in the financial services industry. Robert J. Delahunty is a professor of law at the University of St Thomas and has taught Constitutional Law there for a decade.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholics; catholicsexscandal; popesexscandal; sexscandal; sexualabuse
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To: Al Hitan
Baptism is no human trifle, but instituted by God Himself, moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved

I'd like to read the Official position of the church as to why Jesus insisted on being baptized.

301 posted on 09/21/2018 3:29:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Al Hitan
Why not just ASK???

Good point!


According to current Roman Catholic teaching; is the following still valid today?

a yes or no will satisfy my curiosity.


"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours."

--Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215)

302 posted on 09/21/2018 3:35:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Al Hitan
What are the doctrines of Protestantism?

See; all you had to do was ask!

Here they are; just like you guys came up with them so long ago...

 

The Nicene Creed was originally written in Greek. Its principal liturgical use is in the context of the Eucharist in the West

and in the context of both baptism and the Eucharist in the East. A modern English version of the text is as follows:

 

1. I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

2. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages.

3. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made.

4. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

5. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.

6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

7. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

8. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

9. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

10. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Amen.


(This Prot wonders why they needed to be added to by Rome.)

303 posted on 09/21/2018 3:40:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Luircin
I responded in post 255 to the statement "Most Catholics on FR don’t even know what Protestants believe." with a question (What do all Protestants believe?), and followed up in post 261 with two more questions and demonstrative evidence about just how hard that first question would be to answer (before post 286 itself displayed Ad Hominem, Changing the Subject, and just generally majoring in minors.)

It seems to me more likely that Most Catholics and Protestants on FR don’t even know what Protestants believe.

As for the Catholic Sex Scandal, this abominable scandal proves the Once Saved, Always Saved is erroneous. Those who do such things will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Those who will enter the Kingdom should examine conscience and abstain from fleshly lusts. No adultery, no porneia of any kind, including pornography; no trips to foreign countries to obtain sex.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. First Corinthians, Catholic chapter six, Protestant verses nine to ten,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James


The fact that some Catholics have fallen from grace does not invalidate the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. Some Jews fell from grace and it did not make the Samaritans' religion correct and true. Salvation is of the Jews.
304 posted on 09/21/2018 4:38:27 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981

Thank you for proving that you don’t know what Protestants believe. And that’s mind mind-reading; you demonstrated it outright. It would take like 90 seconds of research to figure out that what you’re claiming is NOT, in fact, what even the most hardcore predestinationists would believe.

And no, it’s not that ‘some Catholics have fallen from grace’ that disproves your claims of ‘one holy apostolic church.’ It’s the fact that your own church teaching demands that you submit to that leadership, no matter how wicked.

Why the literal hell would I want to belong to an organization that demands that I give money to people who protect child rapists?

Or if we go into the past, people who bankrupt their own church with self-indulgent parties? Or people who use that money to run brothels for priests?

This is not ‘some Catholics have fallen from grace.’ This is ‘Rome’s teachings demand that I grievously sin if I want to have salvation.’

That’s not ‘one true church.’ That’s blasphemy.


305 posted on 09/21/2018 7:13:26 AM PDT by Luircin
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To: Al Hitan; ealgeone; Elsie

You know, personal attacks are against the forum rules.

I already told you that I know what Protestant denominations believe, and if you come up with a case where I don’t, I can find out in 90 seconds. For that matter, as the people I’ve pinged to can attest, we’ve been reading your actual church teachings in order to argue against them.

Most FRomans on the other hand seem to be quite happy to attack their personal strawmen instead of engaging in actual discussion of actual theology. Instead it’s just talking points, over and over and over.

And if you don’t know, you could ask what we believe. But I don’t believe that any FRoman ever has.


306 posted on 09/21/2018 7:22:32 AM PDT by Luircin
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To: Al Hitan
So, you are in agreement with this doctrine from Protestantism:

Baptism is no human trifle, but instituted by God Himself, moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved You are ignoring the point, which is not comprehensive doctrinal agreement , which has even been a goal not realized, nor without significant disagreement, which you have in Catholicism as well as Protestantism (though comparing one church with multitudes is invalid), but that of which group is most unified in core beliefs overall.

Which is far from being Catholicism, and the Scriptural basis for determination of what one believes is not mere official paper professions, but what one does and effects. (James 2:18; Mt. 7:20) In which Bible Christians actually show more unity, as well as having the strongest disagreements because they take doctrine seriously. Which is the same case with traditional Catholics, which are a small minority.

Roman Catholicism, the most extreme on the “right” are those who espouse the medieval Catholic position of implicit obedience to most everything the pope publicly teaches, but reject modern popes.

And then there are those who reject some of the modern Catholic teachings based upon their judgment of what valid church teaching consists of and means, and attack the present pope.

And then there are those who affirm that modern teaching is not in contradiction to historical Catholic teaching, which are clarifications of it, and are not be submitted and (at the least) not publicly objected to.

Then there are the very liberal members such as publicly reject even modern Catholic moral positions.

But all of whom (except the first class described) are manifestly considered, in life and in death, to be members in communion with “the Church.” Therefore unlike us, you must treat Ted Kennedy Catholics as brethren just as your church does. And you cannot leave your church without being a schismatic (who are damned according to historical RC teaching). And as regards other the significant differences in Catholicism, this includes the Eastern Orthodox vs. Rome..

Thus I could ask you a lot of questions (see next post).

As for,

Baptism is no human trifle, but instituted by God Himself, moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved

One must be of the faith that effects obedience to be saved.

307 posted on 09/21/2018 8:09:24 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: Al Hitan
Partial List Of Divergent Beliefs Between Catholics
  1. Within official teachings:

  2. Where unbaptized babies go if and when they die?

  3. Geocentricity or Heliocentricity

  4. Whether Trent closed the canon or not

  5. Whether canonizations are or always infallible.

  6. Who all the [so-called] “church fathers” are.

  7. What the church Fathers meant in many cases.

  8. How many Scripture verses have been infallibly or officially interpreted.

  9. What multitudes of Scripture verses surely mean.

  10. The meaning and scope of the inerrancy of Scripture (“for our salvation” or more).

  11. The official immutable position on many theological issues.

  12. The reconciliation of the efficacy of grace with human freedom.

  13. The relationship between Scripture and Tradition: partim-partim or not.

  14. How many infallible teachings there are, and what they all are

  15. What magisterial level multitudes of teachings belong to, and thus the manner of assent required.

  16. What required assent to non-infallible official teachings all entails.

  17. The meaning of official Catholic teaching to varying degrees.

  18. How to reconcile Extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Lumen Gentium,and if former Catholics who die as faithful evangelical-type Protestants are lost.

  19. Whether the anathemas of Trent apply to Protestants today and what they entail.

  20. Whether or not a pope can be deposed.

  21. How many bishops are necessary for this Collegial infallibility to be ensured?

  22. Whether the Virgin Mary died and then was assumed or whether she was assumed before death

  23. Whether Roman Catholicism promoted slavery



308 posted on 09/21/2018 8:09:29 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212
You are ignoring the point, which is not comprehensive doctrinal agreement

The claim made was that "Catholics don't even know what Protestants believe". I've agreed with that statement because when posting to a Protestant, unless you know which flavor they belong to, you don't know just what it is they believe. The primary reason for that is there is no comprehensive doctrinal agreement between denominations.

In which Bible Christians actually show more unity, as well as having the strongest disagreements because they take doctrine seriously.

I'm sure they take doctrine seriously. That's why some denominations are not in full communion with others. Why is it they have the strongest disagreements? Because there is not one set of Protestant doctrine. It's simply a reality, which some here seem to have difficulty admitting.

And then there are those who reject ...

You seen to have the mistaken impression that I'm talking about individuals. I'm not. I'm addressing doctrinal division between denominations, all of whom claim to base their beliefs on Scripture.

Then there are the very liberal members such as publicly reject even modern Catholic moral positions.

I'm sure there are. But that's not what I'm addressing.

Ted Kennedy

There you go again about how individuals practice their faith. Sure there are "bad" Catholics as well as "bad" Protestants, as far as practicing their faith. I don't dispute that. But again, I'm talking about differences in official doctrine/beliefs between the various denominations - which can be confusing for Catholics, and no doubt some Protestants, to know who believes what, especially when there are some here who won't even admit to what group they are a member.

One must be of the faith that effects obedience to be saved.

So, your answer is no.

309 posted on 09/21/2018 9:44:45 AM PDT by Al Hitan
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To: daniel1212
Partial List Of Divergent Beliefs Between Catholics

The Catholic Church has formally defined and declared what is to be believed as a Catholic. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott is a good reference. Although there may be individuals who have divergent opinions on those beliefs, the Church has officially defined what is to be believed.

No doubt there are denominations within Protestantism who have done the same, but the set of defined dogma for a denomination does not apply to all of Protestantism, which results in some of the "strongest disagreements" as you said.

Do Catholics know what Protestants believe? It depends on which denomination they claim, and since there are many it is likely that a Catholic or even other Protestants don't know what they believe.

310 posted on 09/21/2018 10:06:42 AM PDT by Al Hitan
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To: Elsie
I don’t understand how to use your chart

That's most unfortunate.

311 posted on 09/21/2018 10:17:35 AM PDT by Al Hitan
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To: Elsie
Which of the many apparitional sightings do YOU believe in?

Apparitions are private revelations and therefore Catholics are not obligated to believe in them.

Fatima is the most compelling to me.

312 posted on 09/21/2018 10:21:20 AM PDT by Al Hitan
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To: Elsie
See; all you had to do was ask! Here they are; just like you guys came up with them so long ago

That is indeed a fine statement of faith.

313 posted on 09/21/2018 10:23:20 AM PDT by Al Hitan
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To: Elsie
According to current Roman Catholic teaching; is the following still valid today?

Yes, within the context of the whole teaching of the Church.

314 posted on 09/21/2018 10:33:22 AM PDT by Al Hitan
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To: Luircin
You know, personal attacks are against the forum rules.

Agreeing with you is a personal attack? I'll keep that in mind.

I already told you that I know what Protestant denominations believe, and if you come up with a case where I don’t, I can find out in 90 seconds.

Great. Thanks. Do the Bruderhof believe in millennialism? What do they believe regarding the lovemeal? Do the Hutterites believe is rebaptism and is their baptism by full immersion only?

For that matter, as the people I’ve pinged to can attest, we’ve been reading your actual church teachings in order to argue against them.

We've noticed. Reading is one thing; understanding is another.

315 posted on 09/21/2018 10:55:36 AM PDT by Al Hitan
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To: Al Hitan

Nah, I’m done. I proved my point.


316 posted on 09/21/2018 11:20:20 AM PDT by Luircin
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To: Luircin
Nah, I’m done.

Did the 90 seconds expire?

317 posted on 09/21/2018 11:25:25 AM PDT by Al Hitan
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To: Al Hitan
Why not just ASK???

Indeed. That is the whole point. Catholics (as well as some Protestants posting on here) don’t know what Protestants believe because there is not one set of doctrine that covers Protestantism. You have to ask each person what they adhere to if you want to understand where they’re coming from. That is if they will tell you. And if you ask, each of them says that their doctrine is based on Scripture, even if the doctrine conflict with the next guy who claims the same.

Let me simplify this for you then. Catholicism claims to have a unified set of beliefs, right? Yet, on some "pretty significant" doctrines, the Orthodox church's set of beliefs conflict with Roman Catholicism's and they have been for over a thousand years. You don't seem concerned with that in your endeavor to criticize "Protestants". What I have been saying all along is that there IS agreement about the major tenets of the Christian faith among those churches that remain true to their founding statements of faith. I've not denied that there exists denominations who no longer adhere to them as well as those who are counted as being "Protestant" that have NEVER even claimed to hold to those tenets.

What many Catholic apologists are keen to do is to trash all non-Catholic churches based upon their supposed disunity on a myriad of doctrines whether they be major or minor ones and that is simply not accurate. My contention is that there IS agreement on the major tenets of the Christian faith (Nicean Creed, for example) among most "Protestant" churches. But, as has already been ceded, some individuals and errant denominations aren't in agreement on them. There remain churches outside of Roman Catholicism who DO hold formally to the doctrines that make up the Christian faith. That's the best I can do to answer your question.

318 posted on 09/21/2018 1:34:36 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy he saved us.)
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To: boatbums
Yet, on some "pretty significant" doctrines, the Orthodox church's set of beliefs conflict with Roman Catholicism's and they have been for over a thousand years. You don't seem concerned with that in your endeavor to criticize "Protestants".

The division between the Orthodox and the Catholics concerns me. We indeed are not in full communion. But I haven't talked about it here because the discussion was about Catholics not knowing what Protestants believe. The Orthodox are not Protestant.

My contention is that there IS agreement on the major tenets of the Christian faith (Nicean Creed, for example) among most "Protestant" churches.

But that's not what's being discussed, at least by me. The claim was that Catholics don't know what Protestants believe. Protestant belief is not just about the major tenets or all Catholics (and all Protestants) would know what Protestants believe. But they don't. [There have been times on FR where I posted a posted belief and other Protestants were surprised by it.]

...some individuals and errant denominations aren't in agreement on them.

I'm not talking about the individuals. But the denominations who think other denominations are in error because of their differently held beliefs, all supposedly based on Scripture.

319 posted on 09/21/2018 1:48:13 PM PDT by Al Hitan
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To: Luircin
Thank you for proving that you don’t know what Protestants believe.

I asked in post 255

What do all Protestants believe?

320 posted on 09/21/2018 6:41:24 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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