You’ve Seen One Elohim, You’ve Seen Them All? A Critique of Mormonism’s Use of Psalm 82

Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship ^ | 2007 | Michael S. Heiser

[fishtank]

You’ve Seen One Elohim, You’ve Seen Them All? A Critique of Mormonism’s Use of Psalm 82

Michael S. Heiser

FARMS Review 19/1 (2007): 221–66.

1550-3194 (print), 2156-8049 (online)

Heiser discusses Psalm 82 and the interpretations of Elohim that Latter-day Saints and evangelicals derive from that scriptural passage. Heiser then offers alternative interpretations from his own study.

"Over the course of the last eight years I have read several papers dealing in one way or another with that feature of Israelite religion known as the divine council. Anyone doing serious research in Israelite religion is soon confronted with the powerful evidence for a pantheon in the Hebrew Bible. It is a dramatic example of the kind of issue with which evangelical scholars who pursue advanced studies in Hebrew and Semitics must deal. It is also a good example of why some evangelical colleagues whose scholarship focuses on areas outside the Hebrew text, such as apologetics or philosophical theology, cannot appreciate why their articulation of an issue related to our area of specialization may lack explanatory power or coherence. I am reminded of Wayne Grudem’s sobering analysis of several years ago at the Evangelical Theological Society as to how we textual scholars often fail to make the carefully"

[fishtank]

Relevant because of THIS recent debate:

Intense Debate With A Mormon

Aug. 31, 2018

Jeff Durbin and James White Dialogue with Kwaku, a Mormon. Th Conversation ranges from "Can me become gods" to calvinism and predestination. You can get more at http://apologiastudios.com. Be sure to like, share, and comment on this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XbJ3954HW8

[fishtank]

Please be kind and respectful on this thread.

.... Like White, Durbin and Kwaku were in their video debate. ...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Respectful Magic Mormon Underwear Placemarker

[fishtank]

Heiser’s article is WELL worth reading, PS he’s NOT LDS.

[Disambiguator]

I’ve read Heiser’s book, and it’s very good.

Psalm 82 is a pivotal bit of scripture. It’s relevant to Genesis 1:26 and is quoted by Jesus himself in John 10:31-35.

The question is, what does “elohim” refer to?

[the_daug]

8.
Jesus’s quotation of Psalm 82 in John
10 is no argument for his
deity (or rebuttal to the charge of blasphemy) if it is
assumed that Jesus thought the ĕlōhîm of Psalm 82 were humans."

Sorry but Christ was saying he is God as Jesus points out that his works
could only be done by messiah but the leaders had attributed his works to
demons.

[fishtank]

There’s a reason the “IF” is there in Heiser’s sentence.

It’s kind of like FORTRAN.

[Nifster]

Heiser’s works are always challenging. His scholarship always informative. His knowledge of the ancient languages helps me understand better

[Nifster]

Read the whole article.

This is a thought experiment an If Then challenge. If Jews believed this Then Jesus was not making a particle claim. Heifer immediately goes on to state that Israelites did not. view God (Yahweh) in the manner LDS claim

[Nifster]

Exactly

Some folks want to cherry pick so they can spout however little they know

[editor-surveyor]

.
I’ve never observed James White to be “respectful” to anyone.

He is characterized mostly by his arrogance. and smugness.
.

[editor-surveyor]

.
Power panties!
.

[editor-surveyor]

.
Claiming to “know” things from reading an English translation of the Hebrew scriptures can be rather ‘iffy.’

Hebrew is the only language in which Yehova has communicated with man. (Paul told us this in his epistle to the Romans) It is reasonable to expect that translations by men are short of the fullness of the original.

Hebrew is a complex multi-level language,

[Preachin']

If a Mormon would do an honest investigation on that fraud called, “The Book of Abraham,” they’d stop believing everything that’s in Joseph’s Myth. Fir anyone interested there are a lot of youtube videos on the subject.

[ealgeone]

There are some of another denomination on these threads who say we cannot critique Mormonism because we are not Mormons....rather we should just ask them what they believe and allow them to tell us.

I reject that line of thinking.

[Elsie]

I remember when NAMI used to be FARMS

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  Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS)

[Elsie]

What a mass of confusing; overlapping words are found in the ‘study’ at the link.

[Elsie]

Please be kind and respectful on this thread.

What a good idea!!

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Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

 

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Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

 

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

 

 

 

 

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses , vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

 

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

 

 

 

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

 

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

 

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

 

 

 

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

[Elsie]

Some folks want to cherry pick so they can spout however little they know

While other gifted folks don't even have to do THAT!!

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#5

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In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)     http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

[Elsie]

(Paul told us this in his epistle to the Romans)

Where?