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Did Luther say, “Be a sinner and sin boldly”?
https://web.archive.org/web/20140528104851/http://tquid.sharpens.org/sin_boldly.htm ^ | 2005 | James Swan

Posted on 07/08/2018 10:03:40 AM PDT by Luircin

IV. Sin Boldly: A Detailed Analysis

The Letter to Melanchthon ends with the famous “sin boldly” statement:

“If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly,  but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here [in this world]  we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness,  but, as Peter says,  we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God’s glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world.  No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner.”[23]

It’s important to work slowly through this striking exhortation to Melanchthon, remembering that Wittenberg was not a calm spiritual community. It was a place under turmoil. Melanchthon was to face trials both from within his own small group of leaders and outside from the political juggernauts of the papacy and the empire. The situations involving marriage, celibacy, and the Lord’s Supper discussed above may seem like debatable academic subjects to the modern reader, but during these early years of the Reformation they were important societal topics that provoked deep emotion. Changes in these practices were changes in the very fabric of society. Luther encourages his co-worker to stand strong in the faith. The very community that Luther was responsible for was in the hands of Melanchthon.[24] Luther’s final exhortation in this letter is for Melanchthon to hold fast to the firm gospel of Jesus Christ. Whatever trouble may come, Melanchthon was to be true to the Gospel.

What follows is a line-by-line analysis of the paragraph containing the exhortation to “sin boldly.”

“If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace…”

Luther exhorts Melanchthon to stand firm and preach the pure gospel. The pure gospel proclaims God’s true grace. It is a grace that actually forgives all a man’s sins, without any works of penance geared toward eventual justification. The papal system Luther was part of taught that God’s grace could be attained by faith combined good works, and that the sacrament of penance must be carried out to completely forgive a man for sin. This would be a fictitious grace. As Ewald Plass points out, “The concept of grace was, of course, not unknown to Luther the Catholic. But this term, as so many others, had become a ‘weasel word’ in the Church of Rome, a word emptied of its Scriptural meaning. Thus grace was turned ‘from the divine source of pardon and forgiveness into an infused ability (gratia infusa) of man to perform good works for his own salvation.’ ”[25]

“…if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners.”

What does Luther mean “fictitious sin”? Perhaps he has in mind what he had just discussed: people thinking they were sinning by only receiving the bread and not the wine in the Lord’s Supper. This would indeed be a fictitious sin. Elsewhere though, Luther describes the “fictitious sins” concocted by the papacy:

“There are commandments and teachings of the pope which say nothing at all about faith in Christ, as the Gospel does, but merely about obedience to him in bodily, trivial, trifling matters, such as the eating of meat, observing festivals, fasting, dressing, etc. Yet the pope has emphasized and extolled these far more than God's Word, and they are feared and followed far more, have more thoroughly terrified and captivated consciences, and have made hell far hotter than did both God's Law and His Gospel. For they have given little regard to unbelief, blasphemy, adultery, murder, theft, and whatever else is opposed to Christ and His command; for these sins penance was quickly done and forgiveness given. But when someone touched one of the pope's commandments, the bulls had to come with lightning and thunder. This was called damned disobedience and brought a man under the ban of the pope. Now heaven and earth had to tremble in terror. But when sins against God were concerned, sins in which they themselves are drowned, not a leaf stirred. On the contrary, they mocked and laughed at the matter in great security, as they do to this day. Besides this, they persecute and murder in a cruel manner all who esteem God’s commandment above the commandment of their abomination. The pope wants God and His Word under him; he wants himself enthroned above them. This is his regime and nature. Without these he could not be the Antichrist.”[26]

Luther says that God does not save people who are only “fictitious sinners.” No, God saves actual sinners. “Luther often called actual sin, as does Scripture…spiritual adultery.”[27] Luther says all men have a “lust for divinity”: “No sin troubles us as severely as the lust after divinity. Of course, the lust of the flesh is also a furiously strong urge, yet it is only a form (of sin) and nothing in comparison with spiritual lust or fornication.”[28] All actual sins are attempts to deify ourselves. As Ewald Plass points out, “At the heart of every sin which our corrupt nature moves us to commit is the burning desire to recognize no one as superior to ourselves…Luther points to this as the common denominator of all actual sins.”[29] In our zeal to be our own gods, we psychological say, “I do not believe God’s ways are the right way for me.” Thus, at our spiritual roots, our actions are the result of unbelief in the heart- a blatant disbelief that God’s way is the best way. We are all indeed, actual sinners.

“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world.”

Luther was prone to strong hyperbole. It's his style, and this statement is a perfect example. Luther doesn't write analytical theology. He writes profound verbose sentiment driving one to think deeply.

The first thing to recognize is that the sentence is a statement of comparison. Luther's point is not to go out and commit multiple amounts of gleeful sin everyday, but rather to believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly despite the sin in our lives. Christians have a real savior. No amount of sin is too much to be atoned for by a perfect savior whose righteousness is imputed to the sinner who reaches out in faith. But what then is the practical application of sinning “boldly”? What is at the heart of this comparison? Luther explains elsewhere how to take on the attitude of sinning “boldly”:

“Therefore let us arm our hearts with these and similar statements of Scripture so that, when the devil accuses us by saying: You are a sinner; therefore you are damned, we can reply: The very fact that you say I am a sinner makes me want to be just and saved. Nay, you will be damned, says the devil. Indeed not, I reply, for I take refuge in Christ, who gave Himself for my sins. Therefore you will accomplish nothing, Satan, by trying to frighten me by setting the greatness of my sins before me and thus seducing me to sadness, doubt, despair, hatred, contempt, and blasphemy of God. Indeed, by calling me a sinner you are supplying me with weapons against yourself so that I can slay and destroy you with your own sword; for Christ died for sinners. Furthermore, you yourself proclaim the glory of God to me; you remind me of God's paternal love for me, a miserable and lost sinner; for He so loved the world that He gave His Son (John 3:16). Again, whenever you throw up to me that I am a sinner, you revive in my memory the blessing of Christ, my Redeemer, on whose shoulders, and not on mine, lie all my sins; for "the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all" and "for the transgression of His people was He stricken" (Is. 53:6-8). Therefore when you throw up to me that I am a sinner, you are not terrifying me; you are comforting me beyond measure.”[30]

The strong hyperbolic comparison Luther makes between “sinning boldly” and believing and rejoicing in Christ “even more boldly” comes clear. When assaulted by the fear and doubt of Christ’s love because of previous sins or the remnants of sin in one’s life, one is thrust back into the arms of Christ “on whose shoulders, and not on mine, lie all my sins…”. Rather than promoting a license to sin by saying “sin boldly,” Luther’s point is to simply compare the sinner to the perfect savior. Left in our sins we will face nothing but death and damnation. By Christ’s victory over sin, death, and the world, we stand clothed in His righteousness, the recipients of His grace, no matter what we have done.

It also should be pointed out, Luther was not simply telling Melanchthon to try really hard to be “bold”. Elsewhere Luther points out that the Holy Spirit is that which makes one bold. Preaching on John 15: ‘And ye also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning,’ Luther tells his hearers that Christ is saying:

“Yes; then, first, when you become certain of your faith through the Holy Spirit, who is your witness, you must also bear witness of me, for to that end I chose you to be apostles. You have heard my words and teachings and have seen my works and life and all things that you are to preach. But the Holy Spirit must first be present; otherwise you can do nothing, for the conscience is too weak. Yes, there is no sin so small that the conscience could vanquish it, even if it were so trifling a one as laughing in church, Again, in the presence of death the conscience is far too weak to offer resistance. Therefore another must come and give to the timid, despairing conscience, courage to go through everything, although all sins be upon it. And it must, at the same time, be an almighty courage, like he alone can give who ministers strength in such a way that the courage, which before a rustling leaf could cause to fear, is now not afraid of all the devils, and the conscience that before could not restrain laughing, now restrains all sins.”[31]

“As long as we are here [in this world]  we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness,  but, as Peter says,  we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God’s glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world.”

This is simply the same message Paul proclaims in Romans 7. Even though a man has been justified by Christ and had His righteousness imputed to him, the remnants of sin still remain. Paul says,

“For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.”

For Luther, the remnants of sin were not a license to “sin boldly”. Commenting on Romans 7:17, the sins that remain in a believer’s life are there to be fought:

“Sin remains in the spiritual man for the exercise of grace, the humbling of pride, and the repression of presumption. For he who is not busily at work driving out sin without a doubt has sin by the very fact of this neglect, even though he has committed no further sin for which he may be damned. For we are not called to idleness; we are called to labor against our passions. These would not be without guilt—for they are truly sins, indeed damnable ones — if the mercy of God did not forego imputing them to us. But He does not impute them to those only who manfully undertake the struggle with their failings and, calling upon the grace of God, fight it through. Therefore he who goes to confession should not fancy that he is laying down burdens in order to live a life of ease. On the contrary, he should know that by laying down the burden he is undertaking to serve as a soldier of God and is taking a different burden upon himself, the burden of battling for God against the devil and his own failings. The man who does not know this will suffer a quick relapse. Therefore he who does not intend henceforth to fight—why does he ask to be absolved and to be enrolled in the army of Christ?”[32]

“No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner.”

Luther’s critics often quote this statement. The Catholic scholar Jared Wicks has correctly pointed out, “One needs to be on the lookout for Luther's rhetorical flights, and to be judicious in discriminating between the substance of his message and the linguistic extremes with which he sometimes made his points.”[33] The above statement is a perfect example. The point Luther is making is not to go out and murder or fornicate as much as possible, but rather to point out the infinite sacrifice of Christ’s atonement. There is no sin that Christ cannot cover. His atonement was of an infinite value. That this statement was not to be considered literally is apparent by Luther’s use of argumentum ad absurdum: do people really commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day? No. Not even the most heinous God-hating sinner is able to carry out such a daily lifestyle.

Secondly, one must recall the recipient of this letter: Phillip Melanchthon. No historical information exists that indicts Melanchthon of ever murdering or fornicating, even once. The Lutheran writer W.H.T. Dau presents the absurdity of the arguments put forth by Roman Catholic authors along these lines:

“ ‘Be a sinner, and sin bravely, but believe more bravely still’- this is the chef d’oeuvre of the muck-rackers in Luther’s life…What caused Luther to write these words? Did Melanchthon contemplate some crime which he was too timid to perpetrate? According to the horrified expressions of Catholics that must have been the situation. Luther, in their view, says to Melanchthon: Philip, you are a simpleton. Why scruple about a sin? You are confined in the trammels of very narrow-minded moral views. You must get rid of them. Have the courage to be wicked. Make a hero of yourself by executing some bold piece of iniquity. Be an ‘Uebermensch.’ Sin with brazen unconcern; be a fornicator, a murderer, a liar, a thief, defy every moral statute,- only do not forget to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. His grace is intended, not for hesitating, craven sinners, but for audacious, spirited, high minded criminals…Can the reader induce himself to believe that Luther advised Melanchthon to do what he himself knew was a moral impossibility to himself because of his relation to God?…What brave sin did Melanchthon actually commit upon being thus advised by Luther?”[34]

On the other hand, Luther ends by saying, “you too are a mighty sinner” so “pray boldly.” Here, Luther points out the seriousness of sin. While Christ’s sacrifice and work are infinite enough to cover the most heinous of sins, any sin in a person’s life makes them a “mighty sinner” in need of a savior. A little sinner winds up in Hell just as the mighty sinners do, thus we are all really mighty enough sinners to deserve damnation.

That Luther’s words should not be taken literally is clear from statements he made elsewhere about heinous sin:

“Works only reveal faith, just as fruits only show the tree, whether it is a good tree. I say, therefore, that works justify, that is, they show that we have been justified, just as his fruits show that a man is a Christian and believes in Christ, since he does not have a feigned faith and life before men. For the works indicate whether I have faith. I conclude, therefore, that he is righteous, when I see that he does good works. In God’s eyes that distinction is not necessary, for he is not deceived by hypocrisy. But it is necessary among men, so that they may correctly understand where faith is and where it is not. As Paul says, we ought not to trust a faith which is false, as when someone believes he is a part of the church although he meanwhile still whores [I Cor. 5:11]. In this I see that he is not a good tree and when he glories saying, “I am a part,” I can argue against him, “You are not part of the church, because your works are evil.” Therefore, those works are also evidence to himself and to others about him whether he has the true faith. For those who glory that they are Christians and do not show this faith by such works, as this sinful woman does, but persist up to the present and live in open sins, in whoring and adultery, are not Christians at all. For the Christian shows his life and that he has been made a Christian by love and good works and flees all vices. We should not be a part of the church in number only, as the hypocrites, but also by our works, so that our heavenly Father may be glorified. Love merits forgiveness of sins, that is, love reveals that his sins have been forgiven.”[35]

For Luther, outward sins like murder and adultery were obviously bad. But these were only a symptom of unbelief, which is the root of all outward sin. In a sermon on Luke 18, Luther discusses the faith of the Publican as compared to the works of the Pharisee:

“Now let us better see and hear what the Lord says to this. There stands the publican and humbles himself, says nothing of fasting, nothing of his good works, nor of anything. Yet the Lord says that his sins are not so great as the sins of the hypocrite; even in spite of anyone now exalting himself above the lowest sinner. If I exalt myself a finger's breadth above my neighbor, or the vilest sinner, then am I cast down. For the publican during his whole life did not do as many and as great sins as this Pharisee does here when he says: I thank thee God that, I am not as other men are; and lies enough to burst all heaven. From him you hear no word like: "God, be thou merciful to me a sinner!" God's mercy, sympathy, patience and love are all forgotten by him, while God is nothing but pure mercy, and he who does not know this, thinks there is no God, as in Psalm 14:1: "The fool hath Said in his heart, There is no God." So it is with an unbeliever who does not know himself. Therefore I say one thing more, if he had committed the vilest sin and deflowered virgins, it would not have been as bad as when he says: "I thank thee God, that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican." Yes, yes, do I hear you have no need of God and despise his goodness, mercy, love and everything that God is? Behold, these are thy sins. Hence the public gross sins that break out are insignificant; but unbelief which is in the heart and we cannot see, this is the real sin in which monks and priests strut forth; these lost and corrupt ones are sunk head and ears in this sin, and pretend to be entirely free from it.”[36]

In the above statement, one can see Luther’s brilliance with language and theological insight. How many of us think of unbelief as an extreme heinous sin? Compared to blatant fornication or murder, unbelief seems to us as not so bad. Luther though realizes that unbelief is a sin against a holy God, and thus more heinous than any amount of murder or adultery. A sin against a perfect infinite being deserves a perfect infinite punishment. All of us are indeed, mighty sinners.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; luther; reformation; sin
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To: Bishop_Malachi
Because I don’t recall Genesis saying that the Fall occurred from the mere thought of sinning.
 
 

Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)

 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.   (? where did she get THIS from?)

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.    (Thinking about it)

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?


141 posted on 07/09/2018 5:21:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
I heard the illustration many years ago that even if we sinned just three times a day, that would be over 1,000 sins a year.

That's NOTHING!!


 

Let's try some easy math:


There are approximately 1.2 billion Catholics world wide;

If merely 1% of them  'ask' Mary for help just once each day;

that means that 12 million separate prayers are headed Mary's direction every day.

Given that there are 86,400 seconds per day... (24 hours times 60 minutes times 60 seconds)

...that means that Mary has to handle approximately 139 'requests' per second!

Purty good fer someone NOT 'divine'!

142 posted on 07/09/2018 5:23:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: daniel1212

Hey!

This is the Religion forum; how DARE you bring History into it?

143 posted on 07/09/2018 5:26:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: sauropod
I am *so* thankful that He intercedes for us with the Father and that His work on the Cross is the payment for our sin debt.

But ONLY after the Mother of GOD bundles a lot of prayers together for Him to deal with.

144 posted on 07/09/2018 5:27:59 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: YogicCowboy

Great post!


145 posted on 07/09/2018 5:29:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: rollo tomasi; narses

I think he has had a change of heart.


146 posted on 07/09/2018 5:30:10 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: stormhill
What was even more surprising was to see people defend the indefensible.

Yeah; I hear ya!


 

 

Alphonsus Ligouri

Quelle:eomin.org


Alphonsus Liguori on Mary
Dan Corner
[Permission is granted to duplicate this article in its entirety,
but only without additions, alterations or omissions of any kind,
including the author, ministry name and address at the end.
Nothing may be removed from this page including links to other pages.]

alphonsus liquori

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            In the Roman Catholic church, saint Alphonsus Mary Liguori is a well-known, respected figure and influential Catholic Bishop of the past. His teachings have been available for over 250 years. Saint Alphonsus Liguori was declared Venerable in 1796, beatified in 1816, canonized in 1839 and declared a Dr. Alphonsus MARY Liguori Doctor of the Church in 1871 by Pope Pius IX. As of 1997 there were only 33 Doctors of the Church with Saint Alphonsus Liguori being of this elite number. To be such a Doctor of the Church means that Saint Alphonsus Liguori's teachings, though not considered ex cathedra, were carefully examined and approved by the Pope, the supreme teacher in the Roman Catholic Church. Hence, Saint Alphonsus Liguori's teachings and prayers to Mary are believed by his Catholic readership, especially since they carry the endorsements of the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur. He has also been considered an apostle of Mary, since he has done much to exalt her as you will soon read.

            Saint Alphonsus Liguori Gets The Skull and Crossbones Award The following quotes from HERETIC, or as the Catholics say, Saint Alphonsus Liguori are from the book entitled, The Blessed Virgin Mary, which was taken from his much larger book, The Glories of Mary, first written in 1750. On the back cover of the 2000 edition of The Glories of Mary, we read:

                The Glories of Mary, widely regarded as Saint Alphonsus Liguori’s finest masterpiece, has for two and a half centuries stood as one of the Catholic Church’s greatest expressions of devotion to the Blessed Virgin. Written as a defense of Our Lady at a time when Jansenistic writers were ridiculing Marian devotion, this classic work combines numerous citations from the Fathers and Doctors of the Church with Saint Alphonsus’s intense personal piety to produce a timeless treasury of teachings, prayers, and practices.

            Hence, what you are about to read is what this Catholic so-called saint (really a Bible-defined HERETIC) gave as his defense of Our Lady against those who were ridiculing Marian devotion. (Part One of The Glories of Mary is his phrase-by-phrase exposition of the Salve Regina found in the Rosary.)
            Catholic Saint Alphonsus Liguori
            Detailed Explanation of Salve Regina
            Among the multitudinous roles and titles given to Mary by Catholicism, Saint Alphonsus Liguori elaborates on how Mary is our life, our sweetness and our hope, as prayed by hundreds of millions of Catholics when reciting the rosary (in the Salve Regina). Saint Alphonsus MARY Liguori Saint Alphonsus Liguori cites different sources from the Pope himself down to exalted Catholic saints to Doctors in Catholicism for the following concepts about Mary. These same views have been believed by millions of precious souls over the centuries. Please know that Vatican Council II has not renounced any of these teachings about Mary’s importance. Saint Alphonsus Liguori’s teachings regarding Mary continue to be printed and spread throughout the world at this present time.

            Mary is Our Life,
            According To Saint Alphonsus Liguori
            There are two primary reasons why Mary is our life, according to saint Alphonsus Liguori:

                (1) Mary is our life, because she Obtains for us Pardon of our Sins. (Saint Alphonsus Liguori, The Blessed Virgin Mary, Rockford, Illinois: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1982, p.49.)

                (2) Mary is also our Life, because she Obtains for us Perseverance. ( Ibid., p.56.)

            From there the following reasonings are presented as support:

                To understand why the holy Church makes us call Mary our life we must know, that as the soul gives life to the body so does divine grace give life to the soul; for a soul without grace has the name of being alive, but is in truth dead, as it was said of one in the Apocalypse, "Thou hast the name of being alive, and thou art dead." Mary, then, in obtaining this grace for sinners by her intercession, thus restores them to life. (Ibid., p.49.)

                See how the Church makes her speak, applying to her the following words of Proverbs: "They that in the morning early watch for me shall find me." ... A little further on she says, "He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord." "Listen," exclaims St. Bonaventure on these words, "listen, all you who desire the kingdom of God; honor the most blessed Virgin Mary and you will find life and eternal salvation." (Ibid., pp. 49,50. Catholicism actually attributes Proverbs 8:17-35 to Mary. [The truth is this chapter is wisdom personified and has nothing to do with Mary.])

            Besides incredibly misapplying Proverbs 8 to Mary, Saint Alphonsus Liguori also quotes another so-called Catholic saint who believed honoring Mary is the way to find life and eternal salvation. Just knowing that Mary was not even in existence when Proverbs was written refutes the idea that it was her speaking there. Regarding honoring Mary to find life and eternal salvation, the Bible has no hint of this. Furthermore, please notice the following Scripture:

                Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: "I promised that your house and your father’s house would minister before me forever." But now the LORD declares: "Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained." (1 Sam 2:30)

            All through the Scriptures we are shown that the emphasis is to be on honoring God. One is making a very serious mistake to disregard this truth or to exalt another in the place of Jesus for salvation.
            Through Mary Alone Can We Hope
            For Remission of Our Sins, According To Saint Alphonsus Liguori
            After that, Saint Alphonsus Liguori quotes other like-minded Catholic saints:

                With reason, then, does St. Laurence Justinian call her "the hope of malefactors," since she alone is the one who obtains them pardon from God. With reason does St. Bernard call her "the sinners’ ladder," since she, the most compassionate Queen, extending her hand to them, draws them from an abyss of sin, and enables them to ascend to God. With reason does an ancient writer call her "the only hope of sinners," for by her help alone can we hope for remission of our sins. (Ibid., pp.51,52.)

                Therefore, St. Germanus says, "O Mother of God, thy protection never ceases, thy intercession is life, and thy patronage never fails." And in a sermon the same saint says, that to pronounce the name of Mary with affection is a sign of life in the soul, or at least that life will soon return there. (Ibid., pp. 52,53.)

            Mary is a Type of Noah’s Ark and
            She Saves From Eternal Death


                Mary is that happy ark, says St. Bernard, "in which those who take refuge will never suffer the shipwreck of eternal perdition. At the time of the deluge even brutes were saved in Noe’s ark. Under the mantle of Mary even sinners obtain salvation. St. Gertrude once saw Mary with her mantle extended, and under it many wild beasts - lions, bears, and tigers - had taken refuge. And she remarked that Mary not only did not reject, but even welcomed and caressed, them with the greatest tenderness. The saint understood hereby that the most abandoned sinners who have recourse to Mary are not only not rejected, but that they are welcomed and saved by her from eternal death. Let us, then, enter this ark, let us take refuge under the mantle of Mary, and she most certainly will not reject us, but will secure our salvation." (Ibid., p.54.)

                Now, if it is true (and I hold it as certain, according to the now generally received opinion) - that all the graces that God dispenses to men pass through the hands of Mary, it will be equally true that it is only through Mary that we can hope for this greatest of all graces - perseverance. And we shall obtain it more certainly if we always seek it with confidence through Mary. (Ibid., p.56.)

            Among other things, you have just read a doctrine of Vatican Council II which states that Mary is the mediatrix of all graces. Saint Alphonsus Liguori’s salvation message continues:
            If Mary Condemns You, You Will Be Lost

                When a soul loses devotion to Mary it is immediately enveloped in darkness, and in that darkness of which the Holy Ghost speaks in the Psalms: "Thou hast appointed darkness, and it is night; in it shall all the beasts of the woods go about." When the light of heaven ceases to shine in a soul, all is darkness, and it becomes the haunt of devils and of every sin. St. Anselm says, that "if any one is disregarded and condemned by Mary, he is necessarily lost," and therefore we may with reason exclaim, "Woe to those who are in opposition to this sun!" Woe to those who despise its light! that is to say, all who despise devotion to Mary. (Ibid., p.58.)

                It was, then, not without reason that St. Germanus called the most blessed Virgin the breath of Christians; for as the body cannot live without breathing, so the soul cannot live without having recourse to and recommending itself to Mary, by whose means we certainly acquire and preserve the life of divine grace within our souls. (Ibid., p.59.)

                This is exactly what we should do whenever we are assaulted by temptation: we should not stay to reason with it, but immediately fly and place ourselves under the mantle of Mary. (Ibid., p.62.)

                If Mary undertakes our defence we are certain of gaining the kingdom of heaven. "This do, and thou shalt live." (Ibid., p.63.)

            To Cease To Recommend Yourself
            to Mary = Being Lost,
            According to Saint Alphonsus Liguori

                If thy heart is thus far moved, it cannot do otherwise than protect me; and if thou protectest me, what can I fear? No, I fear nothing, I do not fear my sins, for thou canst provide a remedy; I do not fear devils, for thou art more powerful than the whole of hell; I do not even fear thy Son, though justly irritated against me, for at a word of thine He will be appeased. I only fear lest, in my temptations, and by my own fault, I may cease to recommend myself to thee, and thus be lost. (Ibid., p.63.)

            Mary is Our Sweetness
            Concisely stated about this, Saint Alphonsus Liguori writes:

                Mary our Sweetness; she renders Death sweet to her Clients. (Ibid., p. 64.)

            Saint Alphonsus Liguori goes on to explain:

                In their afflictions, and more particularly in the sorrows of death, the greatest that can be endured in this world, this good Lady and Mother not only does not abandon her faithful servants, but as during our exile she is our life, so also is she at our last hour our sweetness, by obtaining for us a calm and happy death. For from the day on which Mary had the privilege and sorrow of being present at the death of Jesus her Son, Who was the head of all the predestined, it became her privilege to assist also at their deaths. And for this reason the holy Church teaches us to beg this most blessed Virgin to assist us, especially at the moment of death: "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death!"

            Mary, the All-Sufficient Protector

                Ah, how quickly do the rebellious spirits fly from the presence of this Queen! If at the hour of death we have only the protection of Mary, what need we fear from all our infernal enemies? David, fearing the horrors of death, encouraged himself by placing his reliance on the death of the coming Redeemer and on the intercession of the virgin Mother. (Ibid., p.66.)

            Nowhere in the entire Bible does it say that David encouraged himself as stated above. Moreover, nowhere in Scripture is there even a single Scripture which exalts Mary’s intercession above any other righteous person’s prayers or that she is the ultimate protector to have at death. Please don’t be mislead. Saint Alphonsus Liguori's teachings are dangerous! He continues with this:

                St. Vincent Ferrer says, that not only does the most blessed Virgin console and refresh them, but that "she receives the souls of the dying." This loving Queen takes them under her mantle, and thus presents them to the Judge, her Son, and most certainly obtains their salvation. (Ibid., p.68.)

                Let us, then, be of good heart, though we be sinners, and feel certain that Mary will come and assist us at death, and comfort and console us with her presence, provided only that we serve her with love during the remainder of the time that we have to be in this world. Our Queen, one day addressing St. Matilda, promised that she would assist all her clients at death who, during their lives, had faithfully served her. "I, as a most tender mother, will faithfully be present at the death of all who piously serve me, and will console and protect them." (Ibid., p.72.)

                How great, then, should be our confidence in this Queen, knowing her great power with God, and that she is so rich and full of mercy that there is no one living on earth who does not partake of her compassion and favor. This was revealed by the blessed Lady herself to St. Bridget, saying, "I am the Queen of heaven and the Mother of mercy; I am the joy of the just, and the door through which sinners are brought to God. There is no sinner on earth so accursed as to be deprived of my mercy; for all, if they receive nothing else through my intercession, receive the grace of being less tempted by the devils than they would otherwise have been. 'No one,' she adds, 'unless the irrevocable sentence has been pronounced' (that is, the one pronounced on the damned), 'is so cast off by God that he will not return to Him, and enjoy His mercy, if he invokes my aid. I am called by all the Mother of mercy, and truly the mercy of my Son towards men has made me thus merciful towards them;' and she concludes by saying, 'And therefore miserable will he be, and miserable will he be in eternity, who, in this life, having it in his power to invoke me, who am so compassionate to all, and so desirous to assist sinners, is miserable enough not to invoke me, and so is damned.' Let us, then, have recourse, and always have recourse, to this most sweet Queen, if we would be certain of salvation ...." (Ibid., pp. 16,17.)

            Please note that the parts related to salvation/damnation allegedly came from an earlier canonized Catholic saint named Bridget, who had visions of Mary. (Much of what Catholicism teaches about Mary, including sacramentals, has come as a result of visions. Examples of such sacramentals are the Rosary, brown scapular and miraculous medal.)
            Mary our Hope, Says Saint Alphonsus Liguori
            Saint Alphonsus Liguori summarizes this section of his writings as:

                Mary is the Hope of All. (Ibid., p. 76.)

                But those who hope in Mary, as Mother of God, who is able to obtain graces and eternal life for them, are truly blessed and acceptable to the heart of God, Who desires to see that greatest of His creatures honored; for she loved and honored Him in this world more than all men and angels put together. And therefore we justly and reasonably call the Blessed Virgin our hope, trusting, as Cardinal Bellarmine says, "that we shall obtain through her intercession that which we should not obtain by our own unaided prayers." (Ibid., p.77.)

                "Hail, then, O hope of my soul!" exclaims St. Ephrem, addressing this divine Mother; "hail, O certain salvation of Christians; hail, O helper of sinners; hail, fortress of the faithful and salvation of the world!" (Ibid., p.78.)

                "O Mary, thou art all-powerful; for thy divine Son, to honor thee, complies instantly with all thy desires."
                      St. Gemanus, recognizing in Mary the source of all our good, and that she delivers us from every evil, thus invokes her: "O my sovereign Lady, thou alone art the one whom God has appointed to be my solace here below; thou art the guide of my pilgrimage, the strength of my weakness, the riches of my poverty, the remedy for the healing of my wounds, the soother of my pains, the end of my captivity, the hope of my salvation! Hear my prayers, have pity on my tears, I conjure thee, O thou who art my queen, my refuge, my love, my help, my hope, and my strength." (Ibid., p.80.)

            If Jesus Rejects Us, Mary Will
            Obtain Forgiveness For Us

                "If my Redeemer rejects me on account of my sins, and drives me from His sacred feet, I will cast myself at those of His beloved Mother Mary, and there I will remain prostrate until she has obtained my forgiveness; for this Mother of mercy knows not, and has never known, how to do otherwise than compassionate the miserable, and comply with the desires of the most destitute who fly to her for succor; and therefore, he says, "if not by duty, at least by compassion, she will engage her Son to pardon me.
                      "Look down upon us, then, let us exclaim, in the words of Euthymius, 'look down upon us, O most compassionate Mother; cast thine eyes of mercy on us, for we are thy servants, and in thee we have placed all our confidence.' " (Ibid., pp. 82, 83.)

            Saint Alphonsus Liquori's
            Mythical Mary of Catholicism

            There are so many errors in the aforementioned quotes from Saint Alphonsus Liguori, as well as the others whom he quoted, that a Bible-believing Christian is hard pressed to know how to respond to the numerous fallacies stated, except at times to simply state that this is clearly not the message of Scripture. In fact, it is not even close. Catholicism has lethally magnified their fabricated Mary to such an elevated place in our lives, including our salvation, that many have been misled to trust in her instead of Jesus alone for their eternal salvation, as the Lord himself taught. Jesus and his apostles openly declared that Jesus is our life (John 14:6; Col. 3:4), sweetness (Mt. 11:29 cf. Acts 7:59) and hope (1 Tim.1:1), but Catholicism has replaced the only Savior with the mother of Jesus or at other times tries to make their mythical Mary the way we get to Jesus for salvation. So, which will it be - Jesus or Mary? To believe either Catholic message about Mary is unscriptural and therefore spiritually deadly.

            mary of the bible Though some today might try to dismiss Saint Alphonsus Liguori’s false teachings as radical Marian devotion and not mainstream Catholicism, remember much of what you read was from other Catholic teachers! All Saint Alphonsus Liguori did, with the help of others, was to expand upon the meaning of the Mary of Catholicism being our life, sweetness and hope, which all present-day Catholics agree upon as they recite the rosary. Again, to the student of the Bible, not only are these statements about Mary recognized as unscriptural, they are dangerously inaccurate and idolatrous. Without question, multiple authorities in Catholicism have exalted Mary to having a role in one’s salvation thus misleading millions of trusting souls. Clearly a wrong message for salvation has been and still is being spread by Catholicism. While Catholicism speaks of Jesus, it also mixes in Mary and other things for salvation, which changes the message and reduces it to a counterfeit - one that won’t bring the desired results - a new creation in Christ. True salvation is found only in Jesus, with absolutely no trust and help from Mary. This is the message of the Bible and should also be ours, if we are claiming to be his followers. Saint Alphonsus Liguori was a dangerous heretic, but the Roman Catholic church canonized him a saint and proclaimed him one of its elite Doctors of the church too! That alone shows the demonic influence in Roman Catholicism. GOD BLESS YOU.

 


147 posted on 07/09/2018 5:34:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: stormhill; Luircin
One question remains; if you take the Gospel of Christ seriously which means you actually believe the Sermon on the Mount, judging by the number of times you called me a fool, how many times have you condemned yourself to eternal hell fire?

Good question; but lacking...


 

Galatians 3

Faith or Works of the Law
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

 

 

Psalms & Proverbs are FULL of 'fools'.

148 posted on 07/09/2018 5:38:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide
Just using the derogatory term, "Romanist", is hateful.

Oh?

Are you NOT a ROMAN Catholic?

149 posted on 07/09/2018 5:39:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Luircin

Dang!!!

Once again I shudda read ahead!

I guess that trumps the ‘turn the other cheek’ thingy; right?


150 posted on 07/09/2018 5:40:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide

I’m a Catholic, and a traditional one at that.

https://youtu.be/gRdfX7ut8gw


151 posted on 07/09/2018 5:50:23 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide
Nothing is settled.



152 posted on 07/09/2018 5:53:41 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Luircin
..the Prots actually read and respond …

You've made kitty cry...

153 posted on 07/09/2018 5:55:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Al Hitan; MHGinTN; ebb tide
If you guys can quit fussin' at one another, we can get back to the topic at hand:

Did Luther say...

Sounds much like Genesis 3, doesn't it!

154 posted on 07/09/2018 5:58:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums
Like all religiously proud...


"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours."

--Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215)

155 posted on 07/09/2018 5:59:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums
Interesting article about how the Roman Catholic church's perspectives about Martin Luther have changed in more modern times.

No more than the following has changed:


As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the following Early Church Fathers promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1:

 • Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:

'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.

Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].

Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:

'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455

Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:

Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)

Cyril of Alexandria:

When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.

Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):

“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'

“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)

Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II):

Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.

156 posted on 07/09/2018 6:01:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide; Luircin

But calling people *heretics* isn’t?

Your hypocrisy is showing.


157 posted on 07/09/2018 6:01:38 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith......)
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To: dsc
Satan’s catamites have neither guts nor courtesy.

AH...
The return of the fella who seems to know Satan quite well.

158 posted on 07/09/2018 6:03:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide; Al Hitan; Luircin

How long have you two been on FR and you haven’t learned the RF posting guidelines yet? Al and ebb, you two really need to get with the program.

Here, check them out.

And learn.

https://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/

“Religion Forum threads labeled “Caucus”

Caucus threads are closed to any poster who is not currently and actively a member of the caucus group.

For instance, if it says “Catholic Caucus” and you are not currently, actively Catholic, then do not post to the thread.

However, if the poster of the caucus invites you, I will not boot you from the thread.

The “caucus” article and posts must not compare beliefs or speak in behalf of a belief outside the caucus.

There is little to no tolerance for non-members of a caucus coming onto the caucus thread to challenge whether or not it should be a caucus. Gross disruption usually follows.

If you question whether the article is appropriate for a caucus designation, send me a Freepmail. I’ll get to it as soon as I can.”


159 posted on 07/09/2018 6:09:35 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith......)
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To: ebb tide; Al Hitan; Luircin

Since the article mentioned Catholicism, it is disqualified from the caucus label, but then again, you have to actually READ the article to see that it mentions Catholicism.


160 posted on 07/09/2018 6:10:44 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith......)
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