Posted on 05/17/2018 8:58:15 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Is God finished with Israel? Is He done with the Jewish people as a people? Heaven forbid. All of Scripture and history shouts a loud "No" to this question.
Paul addressed this directly, asking, "So I ask, did they [speaking of the Jewish people as a whole] stumble in order that they might fall? By no means!" (Romans 11:11). Or, in the words of the King James Version, "God forbid."
So, despite Israel's rejection of Jesus as Messiah, Israel has not fallen beyond the point of recovery. Rather, as Paul writes in Romans 9:4 (speaking, again, of non-believing Jews), "They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises."
Notice carefully those words, all in the present tense in Greek: the divine promises still belong to Israel. And one of those promises is that, whatever Israel does as a nation, even falling under divine discipline, God will preserve them as a nation.
As written in Jeremiah 31:35-37, "Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name: 'If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.' Thus says the Lord: 'If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the Lord.'"
That's why the Jewish people still exist today: We have been miraculously preserved by God, not because of our goodness, but because of His goodness. Thank God that He keeps His promises! Thank God for His grace and mercy and longsuffering! (To all of my non-Jewish, Jesus-loving friends, remember: The Church does not have a monopoly on grace.)
What about the fact that the vast majority of Jews do not believe in Jesus? What about the fact that some militantly oppose faith in Jesus?
That is tragic, and that is why Paul mourned in Romans 9:1-3. Jews without Jesus are lost, just as Gentiles without Jesus are lost (see Romans 2:6-11).
Yet, despite my people's rejection of our Messiah, we remain loved and chosen by God. As Paul stated so clearly, "As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:28-29).
Some would argue that when Paul said "Israel" in these verses, he meant only the believing remnant, the Israel within Israel, Jews who believe in Jesus (see Romans 9:6-8). But to argue for this is to do violence to the Word of God.
First, after making this point about the Israel within Israel (the believing remnant) in Romans 9:6, Paul used the word "Israel" 10 more times, culminating in Romans 11:26. In every case, he meant the nation as a whole, not just the believing remnant.
Second, as New Testament scholar F. F. Bruce pointed out in his commentary to Romans 11:26, ". . . it is impossible to entertain an exegesis which takes 'Israel' here in a different sense from 'Israel' in v 25 ('blindness in part is happened to Israel')." In other words, the Israel that has been temporarily blinded is the Israel that will be saved.
As Bruce explained, "Temporarily alienated for the advantage of the Gentiles, they are eternally the object of God's electing love because his promises, once made to the patriarchs, will never be revoked."
That's why Jesus spoke about the time of future "regeneration," with the twelve tribes of Israel playing a central role (Matthew 19:28).
That's why Peter spoke about the time of the restoration of all things, in accordance with the words of the Old Testament prophets (see Acts 3:19-21).
And what did those prophets speak about? They spoke of the time when the Messiah would reign from Jerusalem, when Israel would be exalted, and when the nations would stream to Jerusalem to learn from Israel's God (see, for example, Isaiah 2:1-4).
The idea that a New Testament writer could reverse all these promises with a single stroke of his pen – as some claim Paul or others did – is to deny the inspiration and authority of the Old Testament. After all, Jesus the Messiah came to fulfill the Hebrew Scriptures, not abolish them (see Matthew 5:17-20). He came to confirm the promises to the patriarchs, not cancel them (see Romans 15:8-9).
And, as Paul also wrote, the Sinai covenant, which came 430 years after the promises to Abraham, cannot annual those promises (Galatians 3:17-18; this includes the promises to the Land of Israel; see also Psalm 105:7-11).
That alone explains the history of the Jewish people. Without a homeland for many centuries, scattered around the earth, yet preserved through generations of unspeakable suffering, only to be regathered to our ancient homeland. Nothing even remotely close to this has happened to any other people. It is only because of the Lord!
And so, both history and Scripture demolish the idea that God is finished with Israel. Not a chance!
(For those wanting to do further study, I recommend the following titles: Brock David Hollett, Debunking Preterism: How Over-Realized Eschatology Misses the 'Not Yet' of Bible Prophecy; Gerald R. McDermott, ed., The New Christian Zionism: Fresh Perspectives on Israel and the Land; by the same author, Israel Matters: Why Christians Must Think Differently about the People and the Land; Barry E. Horner, Future Israel: Why Christian Anti-Judaism Must Be Challengedand Eternal Israel; Michael Vlach, Has the Church Replaced Israel;David Harwood, For the Sake of the Fathers: A New Testament View of God's Love for the Jewish People; Michael L. Brown, Our Hands Are Stained with Blood: The Tragic Story of the 'Church' and the Jewish People.)
True Israel is Israel, gentiles in the church get to be grafted in to Israel, increasing Israel, but the church is not Israel.
Israel will be restored to its fully promised extent which is all of the current state of Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and southern Lebanon.
Prophecies of the new Jerusalem point to a larger dispensation. God has not forgotten Israel or their role as the chosen people, but the call to salvation must end with the Kingdom and a new Jerusalem which symbolizes the wider covenant, in other words, the Christian faithful will also be a chosen people and have their realm on the earth.
This suggests to me that the new Jerusalem will be in a physically different location from the old Jerusalem but this does not mean that promises made about Jerusalem are now invalid.
In this dual fulfilment of prophecy, Jews and Christians will be fully reconciled because there will no longer be any theological differences as the returned Jesus will be known as Messiah to both.
Not only do I believe this to be true, I believe it to be fairly imminent and political developments point towards this outcome. Since we have the same enemies, we could reasonably expect the same blessing.
Basic rules, but too much is invested in arguing dogma. That could be interpreted as an anything goes attitude, that truth is not valued or defended, but that assumes dogma is truth.
Heh, I just took one look at the word dogma and it says, “go mad”.
That about sums it up. Jesus went around pointing out simple stuff, and the Establishment flipped out when he attempted to correct their dogma and assumptions.
He wasn’t blaspheming because he wasn’t claiming to be God, he showed how a man can forgive sins (when they thought only God could do that), and that “son of David” (or Abraham) doesn’t just mean a genetic line, it’s about character - mainly love and mercy.
He certainly wasn’t a pushover. He’d had it with the MSM of his day, always setting him up for Gotcha! traps under the pretext of sincere questions or heresy checks.
The message is as simple as saying “I love you” or “It’s okay.” But that doesn’t work when people exploit love and mercy to beat others down. Sometimes people treat their own family members way worse than strangers because the attitude is, “Hey we’re family, you’re supposed to forgive me”. Free license to abuse in the name of family means somebody missed the memo.
The Redemption is all about dumping the dead weight and starting to actually live, starting from scratch. Not any new rule, but understanding the old. Back to basics. The one covenant is really the Din Shamayaim, the higher law of conscience and consideration for others.
Can it ever be written down and codified? With any law or contract, the second it is put into writing there is a line created. But the line is easily blurred by circumstances or lack of precision, and people set on law-breaking will find a way to skirt the spirit of the law or covenant by using the letter of the law to claim innocence.
Then a new line is needed, and the process repeats forever until one day people wake up and realize that they are in a bondage of their own making. If they wake up and see the problem.
The solution floats over and above all the covenants. God is a spirit. Heart/mind/soul. There’s the connection point (gate of Heaven).
Maybe my reply doesn’t seem to relate to your post or the thread topic. It does though because the entire concept of eternal covenants supersedes all the debates about the covenants. Truth is one truth, and truth never changes.
The Medes and the Persians claimed that their laws couldn’t be changed. Achashverosh still found a way to negate the law, by making one that would supersede the other, such that in practical terms the decree to destroy the Jews was made null and void. Not by the letter, but another way that involved the reality on the ground.
..Israel’s worst days and best days are ahead. HE will not let her be destroyed...
The Remnant shall witness the arrival of the Messiah.
And Satan and the Antichrist and the False Prophet won’t be able to touch them (Revelation 12).
Is God finished with Israel? Is He done with the Jewish people as a people?
Different questions.
Who is "Israel", according to biblical usage?
RE: Who is “Israel”, according to biblical usage?
It is literally used to refer to the Nation of Israel ( those who are PHYSICALLY DESCENDED from Abraham).
However, it is also spiritually used to refer to the Church as the “Israel of God” ( Which includes those who are physical descendants of Abraham as well as those who are spiritual descendants of Abraham by faith. See for instance Galatians 6:15-16).
My understanding of Jesus - and it is a very under-informed opinion (I’m Jewish, and thus don’t believe that he is the promised Moschiach, so why bother studying about him that much?) that he essentially was very upset about the corruption in the Temple hierarchy, and very upset about people not abiding by the principles in the Torah. IOW, he was an idealist. So (again, in my understanding) he went around doing things to get people to pay attention to him, so that he could then get them focused on what was important in the Torah (to be kind and forgiving to others, and to obey and honor God, among others). In the process, he really ticked off the Temple hierarchy and, thus, the Romans (who had hand-picked the High Priest for his fealty to them). He was a revolutionary in the (supposedly, because it is not entirely clear that he said this) Orwellian sense of the word - “In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” But, in reality, he just wanted to return to the times when the Jewish People abided by The Law. Just my $0.02.
Your understanding is pretty informed. Way too much baggage has been attached over a couple thousand years. Who would even recognize Jesus after all the doctrinal weirdness that has been piled on.
It was Herod’s ‘rebuilt’ temple (and the religious Establishment that went with it) that was destroyed.
The Christian religious establishment doesn’t see itself in the mirror. The NT is the book Christians read, not Jews.
It’s all one big flipped over story, like what was said right after Jesus ‘made a scene’:
John 2
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was *this temple* in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
This temple, i.e. the house of merchandise. Body of Christ. And this took place at the first Passover of his teaching, so in three days is also three years in the plain meaning (historical events of the day). The Herod’s Temple swamp took 46 years to become as mired as it was.
The church went on to create Herod’s Roman/Edomite glitz and glamour temples run by important people.
President Trump is a Messianic figure on a number of levels.
People see the political, scientific, and education establishments for what they are, but human religious establishments are not to be criticized. They’re on a mission for God, or some such.
Jesus was definitely the anti-establishment type in a line of anti-establishment types.
The religious world on either side is expecting what its established wisdom says to expect. Recipe for being caught completely off-guard.
Not by the longest shot. Anyone who reads Scripture has to know that Israel is in it to the finish. It's there, over and over.
Well said,
The Church is with Christ already and where he is we may be also, but Israel cannot come,
Israel are the transgressors that have to come to the full (fullness of time) that Daniel was shown, then the end will come,
God makes and keeps his promises, even if we don’t always understand what they are,
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