Posted on 02/20/2018 8:58:35 AM PST by Salvation
The Baltimore Catechism asked the question Where is God? The answer given was God is everywhere. While this is certainly true, it is even more true that God is beyond the concept of “where.” Everywhere is too limiting to contain God, for He transcends His creation and cannot be contained even by the “everywhere” of it.
C.S. Lewis had an interesting analogy:
Looking for God by exploring space is a bit like reading or seeing all Shakespeare’s plays in the hope that you will find Shakespeare …. Shakespeare is, in one sense, present at every moment of the play, but he is never present in the same way … but to look for him as one item within the framework he himself invented is nonsensical [The Business of Heaven, p. 47].
So, just as Shakespeare is far more than and far beyond even the sum total of all his writings, even more is God far beyond the “everywhere” of this world. God is not this or that thing. He is not here or over there. He is existence itself, the very definition of “to be” (ipsum esse).
Yet unlike Shakespeare, God is not merely bigger than and outside what He has made. God is no mere writer or creator who left an impression of himself in what he made. No, God is at the same time both transcendent and immanent. He is inside what He created, sustaining everything He made from moment to moment.
C.S. Lewis continues,
[And so with God] mere movement in space will not bring you any nearer to him or farther from him that you are at this very moment. You can neither reach him, nor avoid him by travelling to … other galaxies [ibid].
This of course raises the question: Why do we attribute a special presence to Christ in the Eucharist or the tabernacles of our churches? Like the ancient Jews, who found a special presence of God in the Ark of the Covenant in the Temple, we do not lack sophistication. We understand that God is not merely in this place or that one, but we do accept by His own revelation that He is uniquely and powerfully present in certain places and in certain ways designated by Him to confer that special presence. Thus, while God speaks in and through His creation, He speaks even more clearly and powerfully in his revealed Word. And while He is everywhere immanently present, He is profoundly present in a special way in the Eucharist and in certain holy places.
In the end, God is everywhere, but he is also “beyond where,” “beneath where,” and “above where.” He is God, who said, “Before there ever was an everywhere, I AM.”
ego eimi
Monsignor Pope Ping!
Do Roman Catholics not believe that He is already with us?
Do they not believe that where two or more are gathered....He is already there?
We have the Holy Spirit continually dwelling in us for those who believe in Christ.
This is a great topic; and in some ways, it is ineffable. I am forever cogitating on the Incarnation itself, and the concept of miniature incarnations abounding within people who have availed themselves of the New Birth, so that, as it says in John 17: “I in them, Thou in Me...”, and “Christ in you, the hope of Glory”, this very enfolding of God into man, and vice-versa.
God’s Presence is also guaranteed wherever two or three are gathered together in His Name. Thirdly, He is said to “inhabit the praises of His people”.
I love this topic because the pastor here brings out the difficulty of using “where” with respect to God’s “location”. I find it fascinating to try to calculate what His unique dimension is like. I do not think it is a material or physical dimension such as we are accustomed to experiencing. Rather, there are recognizable elements, such as are described by prophets and apostles, but they are difficult for even those notables to express.
The absence of physics as we know it help to illuminate the fact that, to God, time is merely a by-product of matter in motion. But God, Who is outside of time, can observe the entire unfolding of it without Himself being subject to it.
I aspire to dwell with Him in that amazing dimension, which has no physical coordinates. I think everyone ought to want to seek that heavenly city, wherein dwelleth righteousness, and whose builder and maker is God.
When God said, "Let there be light" there were no solid objects.
So the sound and light waves from that command are still going.
And yet they are still in Him.
It is only ... 'it is.' (A is A.)
This of course raises the question: Why do we attribute a special presence to Christ in the Eucharist or the tabernacles of our churches? Like the ancient Jews, who found a special presence of God in the Ark of the Covenant in the Temple, we do not lack sophistication. We understand that God is not merely in this place or that one, but we do accept by His own revelation that He is uniquely and powerfully present in certain places and in certain ways designated by Him to confer that special presence. Thus, while God speaks in and through His creation, He speaks even more clearly and powerfully in his revealed Word. And while He is everywhere immanently present, He is profoundly present in a special way in the Eucharist and in certain holy places.
Then read what God says. How does God define the new covenant? Remember, he destroyed the temple, got rid of the priestly system and the sacrificial system .
Heb_8:10 But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people.
Heb_10:16 “This is the new covenant I will make with My people on that day, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
Rev 2:7 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what He is saying to the churches.
(Jer 31:31) “The day is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
(Jer 31:33) “But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,” says the LORD. “I will put My instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people.
(Luk 22:20) After supper He took another cup of wine and said, “This cup is the new covenant between God and His people—an agreement confirmed with My blood, which is poured out as a sacrifice for you.
(1Co 11:25) In the same way, He took the cup of wine after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant between God and His people—an agreement confirmed with My blood. Do this to remember Me as often as you drink it.”
(2Co 3:6) He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.
(Heb 8:8) But when God found fault with the people, He said: “The day is coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
(Heb 8:10) But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people.
(Heb 8:13) When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means He has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.
(Heb 9:15) That is why He is the One who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.
(Heb 10:16) “This is the new covenant I will make with My people on that day, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
(Heb 12:24) You have come to Jesus, the One who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance like the blood of Abel.
....” Why do we attribute a special presence to Christ in the Eucharist or the tabernacles of our churches?”......
Well I see Christ Jesus as ‘indwelling’ the believer at the moment of Salvation just as He said. It’s impossible to get any closer than this....certainly nothing tangible can contain that ‘finished’ work already ‘completed’.....
“You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you” ...........In Christ you have been brought to ‘fullness’.....So you also are ‘complete’ through your union with Christ......
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me...........
(John 14:16-17)...(Colossians 2:10)....(Galations 2:20)
Yep - we exist within God’s mind - the whole universe - He spoke us into existence...I like the paradigm that everything that is, exists within God, yet He can exist within our finite hearts...
I don't think you quite grasped Fr. Pope's point.
Of course we believe He is already with us. Charles Pope just says that in every paragraph he wrote.
But Christ has special ways of dwelling in special places.
Otherwise, even "where two or three are gathered" or "within the hearts of we who believe in Christ" or "on Sinai's height, enveloped in a cloud glory" wouldn't be any more special than anywhere else.
It's like this: you are with your spouse when you are asleep on the sofa, and your spouse is sitting in an armchair right beside: the two of you are present. You're even "more present" if you're both on the sofa. And even "more present" if you're both on the sofa and awake. And "more present" yet if you're on the sofa, awake and entwined.
All present: but different intensities of presence.
The Hebrew word "name" is shem (שם).
Same letters. It's the place of "there", because... that's what is literally in a name.
"Space" by definition is boundless. If it had a limit, it wouldn't be space. It would require a limiting modifier.
1 Kings 9
1 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do,
2 That the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.
3 And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
A house is not just a physical building, it's a family line. A house (temple) within. A house divided against itself cannot stand, however.
This is going to take a special builder who is particularly skilled in joinery. The word son, ben, is from the root banah, build. He will repair and build the Temple to completion.
"There" and "name" are one place, space. Solomon means whole, perfect, complete (and by extention, peaceful).
Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within you.
"Panels are made slightly smaller than the available space within the frame to provide room for movement. Wood will expand and contract across the grain, and a wide panel made of solid wood could change width by a half of an inch, warping the door frame. By allowing the wood panel to float, it can expand and contract without damaging the door."
The concept is "give", to provide room to play.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
There's a saying about "thinking outside the box", but even better to construct a bigger box such that there is no "outside" the box.
There's a guy who knows how to build that type of box, but who's listening to his instructions.
I'm not sure the Msgr has grasped the Gospel's point.
Of course we believe He is already with us.
It doesn't sound like it!
When the Scriptures tell us He's dwelling in us....not sure how much more present or intense you can get than that.
By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 1 John 4:13 NASB
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:9-11 NASB
(you)"It doesn't sound like it!"
Again...
“You Catholics are wrong because you believe X.”
“We don’t believe X.”
“Wrong again. Yes you do.”
* Aggressiveness: 100%
* Rigidity: 100%
* Openness: 0%
* Empathy: 0%
This is how God can be seen as being "especially" present in the heart of a believer, or "where two or three are gathered," or on Sinai's height, or on Mt. Tabor, or in the gathered congregation, or in the womb of His Blessed Mother, or in the Holy Eucharist, or in Heaven with His Saints.
See? God is present in those places (as in all places), but not in exactly the same way.
It is not He who varies. It is we who vary.
We are not equally present to HIM,for instance, if we are drunk or crazy or unconscious or resistant to Him. But HE is present always.
It's like Augustine said (and I really love this),
Late have I loved you, Beauty so ancient and so new,
late have I loved you!
Lo, you were within,
but I outside, seeking there for you,
and upon the lovely things you have made
I rushed headlong – I, unlovely.
You were with me, but I was not with you.
They held me back far from you,
those things which would have no being,
were they not in you.
You called, shouted, broke through my deafness;
you flared, blazed, banished my blindness;
you lavished your fragrance, I gasped;
and now I pant for you;
I tasted you, and now I hunger and thirst;
you touched me, and I burned for your peace.
To me, that's a WOW.
When Roman Catholicism claims the “Real Presence”at the Mass and then claim it’s somehow more intense than Christ dwelling in you as stated in the Scriptures it is the RCC that is pushing a false narrative. Hence the statement it doesn’t sound like you believe it.
He’s already with the believer......at least in Christianity. Not sure about Roman Catholicism.
Contempt doesn’t advance conversation. This conversation has come to an end.
I fail to see how the presence of Christ is different in the Mass [and we can debate the Mass later] as opposed to what John wrote in 1 John:
By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 1 John 4:13 NASB
The word in (ev in greek) can convey the meaning of:
of a person to whom another is wholly joined and to whose power and. influence he is subject, so that the former may be likened to the place in which the latter lives and moves. So used in the writings of Paul and of John particularly of intimate relationship with God or with Christ, and for the most part involving contextually the idea of power and blessing resulting from that union thus http://biblehub.com/greek/1722.htm
Understood both from a spiritual and literal perspective....Christ dwells in us and we in Him.
You can't get any more of a real presence than that.
This is why the Scriptures admonish us not to grieve the Spirit, who also is in us.
I find no place in the NT where either Jesus or the Spirit ever leave the believer.
Christ is Christ. The Spirit is the Spirit.
One does not have a different Christ dwelling in them today and then the believer goes to a meeting tomorrow with other believers and a different form of Christ is there.
His presence is His presence.
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