Posted on 01/13/2018 10:03:11 PM PST by tiredofallofit
One of my favorite places to sit and work is Panera Bread. No, this is not a plug for Panera Bread! It’s just that I enjoy the atmosphere – something about it helps me to complete my tasks more efficiently. I can sit in a booth for hours and lose myself in my work despite the noise around me.
But once in awhile I will tune into that noise and pick up on some interesting conversations. Especially about church. Sometimes there will be a pastor sitting nearby talking about church matters with a staff member. More often than not, however, I will just hear people complaining about their church. And usually, they are complaining about the worship service or the pastor’s sermons. How the service does not conform to their tastes. Or how they wish the music was different or the sermon was more interesting.
This got me thinking about what people expect from their churches and how they might be easily disappointed. The church experience is supposed to be a time of worship and communion yet how many American Christians expect to see a show on Sunday mornings? And how many churches try to oblige this wish by creating a “production” as opposed to a genuine worship service? Unfortunately, I have been in plenty of churches where I felt like I was more of a TV show prop than a congregant.
Years ago, I attended a church that offered a popular contemporary music service complete with a shiny reflective wooden floor, spotlights that changed color, stage fog, and large screens on either side of the stage on which were projected lyrics and closeups of the worship leaders. It was a loud experience; I could never hear myself singing. I could never tell if anyone around me was singing either. But there was a certain energy in the room that built up as the worship service proceeded. People raised their arms and their bodies drifted back and forth. And then just when the emotion in the room seemed to reach a high point, the music would stop and the pastor would run onto the stage with a Starbucks mug in his hand. He would tell a few jokes and begin the sermon, hoping I suppose to benefit from the positive energy that had been created by the worship.
Thirty to forty-five minutes later, when the service was over, I always felt somewhat drained and disappointed. The emotional high was gone and in its place was an emptiness that made me question if this was really all there was to the worship experience.
But does it happen at home, and meeting a couple of guys once in a while? No. Not very often.
“Does two or three gathered in my name jog your memory?”
Yes, but that passage was NOT discussing the Body of Christ.
“And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the training of the saints in the work of ministry...” - Ephesians 4
“For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. So the body is not one part but many. If the foot should say, “Because I’m not a hand, I don’t belong to the body,” in spite of this it still belongs to the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I’m not an eye, I don’t belong to the body,” in spite of this it still belongs to the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed each one of the parts in one body just as He wanted. And if they were all the same part, where would the body be? Now there are many parts, yet one body.” - 1 Corinthians 12
If one is part of the Body of Christ, one isn’t solo. Nor is meeting with 2 or 3 others normally sufficient.
“The reason I left you in Crete was to set right what was left undone and, as I directed you, to appoint elders in every town: one who is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of wildness or rebellion. For an overseer, as God’s administrator, must be blameless, not arrogant, not hot-tempered, not addicted to wine, not a bully, not greedy for money, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, righteous, holy, self-controlled, holding to the faithful message as taught, so that he will be able both to encourage with sound teaching and to refute those who contradict it.” - Titus 1
Not much to “oversee” if it is just 2-3 gathering. Big difference between meeting to pray and the Church.
If one is part of the Body of Christ, one isn’t solo. Nor is meeting with 2 or 3 others normally sufficient
2 or three is sufficient for Jesus, He is there. It is YOU that doesn’t like the idea........................
“2 or three is sufficient for Jesus, He is there. It is YOU that doesn’t like the idea...................”
Incorrect. Just as there are more than 2 parts to a body, there are more than 2 people in a church. You cannot really have the function of an elder when there are only 2 there. No need for an “overseer”.
Jesus is “with me” when I’m otherwise alone, but I am not a church of one. The passages I’ve quoted - and there are many more - show church is NOT about 2-3 people gathering to pray, but to function as the Body of Christ. “For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.” MANY members.
“This saying is trustworthy: “If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble work.” 2 An overseer, therefore, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, self-controlled, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an able teacher, 3 not addicted to wine, not a bully but gentle, not quarrelsome, not greedy— 4 one who manages his own household competently, having his children under control with all dignity. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of God’s church?)...
...Deacons, likewise, should be worthy of respect, not hypocritical, not drinking a lot of wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And they must also be tested first; if they prove blameless, then they can serve as deacons. 11 Wives, too, must be worthy of respect, not slanderers, self-controlled, faithful in everything. 12 Deacons must be husbands of one wife, managing their children and their own households competently. 13 For those who have served well as deacons acquire a good standing for themselves, and great boldness in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.” - 1 Tim 3
A church is NOT 2 or 3 gathering to pray. No need for deacons, elders, overseers, teachers, gifts of administration, etc IF a church is just 2-3. One needs to ignore most of the NT letters - written to CHURCHES - to believe Jesus doesn’t care if we hold ourselves apart.
So, exactly how many people have to be there before you have a church with all the functions filled?
Don’t know. But not solo, and not 2-3. Not unless there is no other option.
Don’t know. But not solo, and not 2-3. Not unless there is no other option.
All the functions and roles can be there with two or three. Especially if GOD is there.
Now if God is there with me that is part of the church also, because I am not alone.
The important part is not the number of people, It is not the parts of the body. The important thing is that God is there!
From what the New Testament teaches, what is important is not the numbers alone. However, it exists so the officers - the pastor, elders, teachers, etc can HELP the members, and the members can help and encourage each other.
So ask yourself, “Is my goal to see how FEW people I can help, and how FEW people can help me to draw closer to Christ?” Because if you are haggling to see how few people you can help and be helped by...there is something VERY wrong!
We may move in a year or so to a small town with no Christian churches. If so...we’ll be a small home church. But if we can find any others Christians there, we’ll join together. The goal will NOT be to see how few can band together!
The goal will NOT be to see how few can band together!
So what is a church then? Your discussion has emphasized structure and organization. That is all you have presented. We like structure because we can control it, we understand it. We find comfort in it.
Now when God takes that structure away what is left?
You want to know God, Let him take you out to the wilderness where it is just you and Him.
The church is those who God has given to Jesus. It is those who have a relationship with God. His body is all his chosen ones through time and space, He has always uses individuals not institutions................
I have pastors, teachers and elders throughout the ages that God has given me.
Now, you have criticized and judged someone here telling him his church of family and friends is not right. Yet God has put him exactly where he needs to be.
You need to go to the corner and think.
Got my Bachelor's in Nursing at a private Christian university where OT and NT study courses were compulsory. learned exegesis, also in a compulsory course. Have tons of Greek and Latin biblical dictionaries and translations.
But do you know what else I have? The Holy Spirit and His revelation of the word. Just like some mile-wide-inch-deep fancy pants pastor.
We are told to test the words of our teachers. How do you suppose we do that? Through thorough knowledge of the Scriptures, prayer, meditation on God's word.
The shallowness of the church in America sickens me. God's Word, His Son, and His Spirit lift me up. Good enough for me, and I'm confident that while will never be perfect, by faith in the blood of the living, risen, returning Son of God- the Lord Jesus Christ- I'm ready.
James Brown - The Old Landmark - The Blues Brothers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKKVVnKjr2g
James Brown, Can you see the light, Blues Brothers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbq0OuJtErs
“Yet you continue to argue with God that two or three are not sufficient.”
I’m not arguing with God. I’m QUOTING Him. 2 or 3 is NOT the church described again and again in the New Testament.
“You want to know God, Let him take you out to the wilderness where it is just you and Him.”
Not biblical. You wouldn’t throw a finger out into the wilderness and expect it to thrive without the body. You wouldn’t take an eye out and throw it off by itself. There is no way to reconcile your rejection of the church with the New Testament.
We don’t have to go any where to
Worship God we can worship him by
The way we live.
I don’t need some fancy pants.
................................
You are not alone, so many have
turned truth into nothing but religion.
You also sound like you have a bit of rebellious spirit and some bitterness.
Live you brother, God bless!
I generally agree with your points.
Actually I have neither. I pray that the church in America is revived, and that the spirit of mammon is purged from her. I love my brothers and sisters, but hate the spirit that has taken over our body in this country.
As far as "going to church" is concerned, the work I am called to does not often allow for going to some building every Sunday. I fellowship with two or more Christians at work, at home, and at occasional breakfasts or lunches with Christian friends.
"Wherever two or more are gathered, I am there."
I do not forsake fellowship. I just don't fellowship in a way that enriches an organization's coffers. And I don't knock those who choose to fellowship in the orthodox way.
This is simply how, for this season at least, God is working in my life.
Peace to ya.
“We don’t have to go any where to
Worship God”
Actually, we do have to go somewhere if we’re going to it the way God arranged it in the Church. Acts 2:42.
“we can worship him by
The way we live.”
And that’s necessary, but to think you can or must only do that denies reality. No such worship (i.e. “by The way we live”) is possible without dedicated worship (i.e. worship in the liturgical assembly of believers - in the midst of the Church).
To deny the value of the liturgical worship God Himself devised is to deny the plan of God Himself. Anyone who denies God’s plan cannot offer God true worship the way He intended.
If you believe you have to go to church I have no
argument, I believe there are some honest to god
churches left.
but since I am convinced or mostly convinced that
the religious institutions today are mystery
Babylon and her daughter’s in rev 17.
In rev 18 God said come out of her my people, I just can
not think of any place else where God’s people would think
they should be but shouldn’t.
Thanks, maybe I am wrong and I guess I actually hope so.
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