Posted on 09/01/2017 1:40:56 PM PDT by NYer
I’m not sure why you are going on and on saying the same thing you said earlier. I said I didn’t have an issue with your refuting those who say that the entire Bible is covered by the Mass (ie. I agree with you??). I don’t doubt that there are Catholics who seem to think that the latter is true. They are wrong.
Therefore I provided you with evidence to the contrary, and which warranted my response in the first place.
Fair enough. But I wasn’t inferring that there aren’t Catholics who say that...just that I have never heard anyone say it. At this point there is nothing that a Catholic might say that would surprise me.
I was too
As far as I can tell, the collection of poltroons, buffoons, and luxuriously corrupt imcomptetents in high places is just evidence that God is keeping the Catholic Church afloat, because it's a good bet the skills, wisdom, or sanctity of the folks in management couldn't do it unassisted.
This is certainly not the typical RC defense, but it is actually a better and honest one, and yet even Pilate could have no power except it were given him from above, and God has His purposes in even allowing Islam to continue. For as with the devil God allows false prophets in order to test the people, to prove them, whether they will seek what is right, and thus the Lord.
And the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice; I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the Lord to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not. Therefore the Lord left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua. (Judges 2:20-23)
While Catholicism has always retained salvific Truths whereby a remnant of broken hearts and contrite spirits could be redeemed, for the Lord saved such, (Psalm 34:18) yet these are in the midst of a mass of traditions of men, which Catholic distinctives are manifestly not seen in the inspired record of what the NT church believed , and overall foster confidence in the system and one's own merits for salvation.
Thus Catholicism is an admixture of Teddy K Catholics to SSPV or at least SSPX-type traditionalists, with a remnant that lays hold on Christ for salvation to save them on His account as damned and morally destitute sinners. And which is how I came to Christ as a Catholic at age 25, thanks be to God,after being raised devout, and thus realized a hunger to know how to obey God from the Scriptures, with help then coming much from evangelical radio .
At that time I found some signs of regeneration/life and fellowship in Catholic Charismatic meetings, but it was in conservative evangelicalism that this was far more realized, with doctrine that results in this being basically sound.
Certainly in what is called Christianity only a relative remnant will be saved. rejecting both false christs as well as inert and impenitent faith in the Lord Jesus, which does not effect characteristic fruit in heart and deed, and contrite repentance when convicted of the contrary (which i am ).
But that souls need a day of salvation of true repentant faith in the risen Lord Jesus to save them by His sinless shed blood as lost sinners is militated against by both Prot "easy believism" coaxing sinner's prayers out of souls that are not convicted of their need for such, and assurance based on fruitless profession, as well as a system that pronounces them to be children of God already due to some sprinkling as infants, and of meriting salvation by ritual sacramentally dispensed grace, and with final salvation thru purgatorial atonement and purification, commencing at death, making them good enough to be with God, with early release obtained by indulgences.
One can go about blaming the poor condition of Catholicism as being due to being "poorly catechised," while in reality most Catholics get the message that is effectually conveyed, which is that The Church will see them thru glory however nominal they be.
Only among very few Catholics of simple humble contrite faith (as you) have I found some fellowship of the Spirit (Phil. 2:1) in Christ, while instead what we see is devout Catholics incessantly promoting and defending their church and attacking those who dare challenge their assertions, manifesting their elitist "One True Church" is their security.
In response, I am not here to defend a particular church but a faith by which one realizes the washing of regeneration, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Titus 3:5) and thus a living fellowship with the Lord Jesus and obedience to His word , which shared conversion and relationship and esteem for His word is the basis for evangelical fellowship.
all the readings for the masses are in the missals, rather than have the congregation “open your bible to book x change y verses a-b.. they are just in line to be read along with, and hopefully if you have a good Priest, the Homily offers explanation within historical context of what was read, an how it can apply to your daily life.
agreed, this is complete hogwash.
Someone wants to criticize the Catholic church, fine, its an organization of man and contains plenty of the failings of man... but this claim is out and out hogwash.
Yes it is not new, but rare today, while (as an aside) certainly Dante Alighieri had motivation for his Divine Comedy, being one of the "White Guelphs" - opposed to Papal influence, specifically the influence of Pope Boniface VIII - and in 1302 was condemned to exile for two years and ordered to pay a large fine after the "Black Guelphs" (competing church parties ) took control of Florence and accused him of corruption and financial wrongdoing. Which fine his refused to pay (Black Guelph seized all his assets in Florence) and condemned to perpetual exile, and could have been burned at the stake if he returned to Florence without paying the fine.
No pacifist himself, he later wrote to the "Holy Roman Emperor" Henry VII of Luxembourg and several Italian princes, demanding that they destroy the Black Guelphs. His experiences and exile led to his "Comedy,"
In 1315 his death sentence was commuted to house arrest on the condition that he would go to Florence inn order to swear that he would never enter the town again. But which he refused to go and do, and his death sentence was confirmed and even extended to his sons
His experiences led to him writing the Divine Comedy (Commedia), published by 1317, but which Rome was not amused by. His political treatise De Monarchia, written btwn 1308 to 1318, criticizes the Unam sanctam of Pope Boniface VIII and was banned by the Catholic church in 1585. The Catholic Encyclopedia states that Dante's vehement denunciation of the ecclesiastical corruption of his times, and his condemnation of most of the contemporary popes (including the canonized Celestine V) to hell have led to some questioning as to the poet's attitude towards the Church. Even in the fourteenth century attempts were made to find heresy in the "Divina Commedia", and the "De Monarchiâ" was burned at Bologna by order of a papal legate, though "His theological position as an orthodox Catholic has been amply and repeatedly vindicated." Meanwhile in his the" Inferno" Dante represents Boniface (and a number of Popes) as condemned to Hell.
In her article "Hell as the Mirror Image of Paradise," Joan M. Ferrante" writes:
That the church also knew the poem and understood its critical message is clear from various attacks: a Dominican, Guido Vernani, called Dante's poetry "a poisonous vessel of the father of lies, covered with false and fallacious beauty, by which the author, with poetic phantasms and figments and the eloquence of his words, his siren songs, fraudulently leads not only the sick and ignorant but even the learned to destroy the truth which might save them" (De reprobatione Monarchiae). The reading of Dante's poetry was prohibited at a Dominican chapter in Florence in 1335, although it apparently continued to be popular among the brothers; and various passages from the poem—on ecclesiastical corruption—were condemned by church inquisitions. The whole of the Monarchia was on the papal index [of forbidden books] from 1554 to 1881.
But in time Dante's work became one of the most esteemed works of its kind, and on April 30, 1921, in honor of the 600th anniversary of Dante's death, Pope Benedict XV promulgated an encyclical named In praeclara summorum, calling him one "of the many celebrated geniuses of whom the Catholic faith can boast" and the "pride and glory of humanity"
Moreover, in June 2008, nearly seven centuries after his death, the city council of Florence passed a motion rescinding Dante's sentence. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_Alighieri)
So much for the homework.
No southern baptist believes in Mary that wat atal
From testimony given on the pages of FR; it appears that a LOT of FR's Catholics ain't exaltin' too much with the present fella.
I wonder what gives them the AUTHORITY to pass judgment on the poor guy?
You need more assurance than THAT!!!
Besides the Indulgences attached to the Rosary, Our Lady revealed to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan de la Roche additional benefits for those who devoutly pray the Rosary. Our Lady's promise is shown in darker blue text. Additional explanation on and doctrinal connections to each promise is shown following in the smaller normal text font and color. Note that the Rosary is the prayer (non-Liturgical) with the most published Magisterial / Papal documents expounding on its excellence. Vatican II's summary on Our Lady is contained in Lumen Gentium chapter VIII.
| 1. | Whosoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary shall receive signal graces. Signal Graces are those special and unique Graces to help sanctify us in our state in life. See the remaining promises for an explanation for which these will consist. St. Louis de Montfort states emphatically that the best and fastest way to union with Our Lord is via Our Lady [True Devotion to Mary, chapter four]. |
| 2. | I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary. Our Lady is our Advocate and the channel of all God's Grace to us. Our Lady is simply highlighting that She will watch especially over us who pray the Rosary. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62) [a great more detail is available on this topic in True Devotion to Mary, chapter four, by St. Louis de Montfort] |
| 3. | The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin and defeat heresies. This promise, along with the next, is simply the reminder on how fervent prayer will help us all grow in holiness by avoiding sin, especially a prayer with the excellence of the Rosary. An increase in holiness necessarily requires a reduction in sin, vice, and doctrinal errors (heresies). If only the Modernists could be convinced to pray the Rosary! (see Lumen Gentium chapter V - The Call to Holiness #42) St. Louis de Montfort states "Since Mary alone crushed all heresies, as we are told by the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary)..." [True Devotion to Mary #167] |
| 4. | It will cause good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire for Eternal Things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means. This promise, along with the previous, is the positive part, that being to live in virtue. Becoming holy is not only avoiding sin, but also growing in virtue. (see Lumen Gentium chapter V - The Call to Holiness #42) |
| 5. | The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary shall not perish. Since Our Lady is our Mother and Advocate, She always assists those who call on Her implicitly by praying the Rosary. The Church reminds us of this in the Memorare prayer, "... never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your intercession, was left unaided ..." |
| 6. | Whosoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of Eternal Life. This promise highlights the magnitude of Graces that the Rosary brings to whomever prays it. One will draw down God's Mercy rather than His Justice and will have a final chance to repent (see promise #7). One will not be conquered by misfortune means that Our Lady will obtain for the person sufficient Graces to handle said misfortune (i.e. carry the Crosses allowed by God) without falling into despair. As Sacred Scripture tells us, "For my yoke is sweet and my burden light." (Matthew 11:30) |
| 7. | Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. This promise highlights the benefits of obtaining the most possible Graces at the hour of death via the Sacraments of Confession, Eucharist, and Extreme Unction (Anointing of the Sick). Being properly disposed while receiving these Sacraments near death ensures one's salvation (although perhaps with a detour through Purgatory) since a final repentance is possible. |
| 8. | Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the Light of God and the plenitude of His Graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the Merits of the Saints in Paradise. Our Lady highlights the great quantity of Graces obtain through praying the Rosary, which assist us during life and at the moment of death. The merits of the Saints are the gift of God's rewards to those persons who responded to His Grace that they obtained during life, and so Our Lady indicates that She will provide a share of that to us at death. With this promise and #7 above, Our Lady is providing the means for the person to have a very holy death. |
| 9. | I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary. Should one require Purgatorial cleansing after death, Our Lady will make a special effort to obtain our release from Purgatory through Her intercession as Advocate. |
| 10. | The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of Glory in Heaven. This promise is a logical consequence of promises #3 and #4 since anyone who truly lives a holier life on earth will obtain a higher place in Heaven. The closer one is to God while living on earth, the close that person is to Him also in Heaven. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states "Spiritual progress tends toward ever more union with Christ." (Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 2014) |
| 11. | You shall obtain all you ask of me by recitation of the Rosary. This promise emphasizes Our Lady's role as our Advocate and Mediatrix of all Graces. Of course, all requests are subject to God's Most Perfect Will. God will always grant our request if it is beneficial for our soul, and Our Lady will only intercede for us when our request is good for our salvation. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62) |
| 12. | All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities. If one promotes the praying of the Rosary, Our Lady emphasizes Her Maternal care for us by obtaining many Graces (i.e. spiritual necessities) and also material necessities (neither excess nor luxury), all subject to the Will of God of course. |
| 13. | I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire Celestial Court during their life and at the hour of death. Since Our Lady is our Advocate, She brings us additional assistance during our life and at our death from all the saints in Heaven (the Communion of Saints). See paragraphs 954 through 959 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. |
| 14. | All who recite the Rosary are my Sons, and brothers of my Only Son Jesus Christ. Since the Rosary is a most excellent prayer focused on Jesus and His Life and activities in salvation history, it brings us closer to Our Lord and Our Lady. Doctrinally, Our Lady is our Mother and Jesus is our Eldest Brother, besides being our God. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62) |
| 15. | Devotion to my Rosary is a great sign of predestination. Predestination in this context means that, by the sign which is present to a person from the action of devoutly praying the Rosary, God has pre-ordained your salvation. Absolute certainty of salvation can only be truly known if God reveals it to a person because, although we are given sufficient Grace during life, our salvation depends upon our response to said Grace. (See Summa Theologica, Question 23 for a detailed theological explanation). Said another way, if God has guaranteed a person's salvation but has not revealed it to Him, God would want that person to pray the Rosary because of all the benefits and Graces obtained. Therefore the person gets a hint by devotion to the Rosary. This is not to say that praying the Rosary guarantees salvation - by no means. In looking at promises #3 and #4 above, praying the Rosary helps one to live a holy life, which is itself a great sign that a soul is on the road to salvation. (See also paragraphs 381, 488, 600, 2782 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.) In fact, St. Louis de Montfort says even more strongly that "an infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God's true friends is that the hardened sinner and heretic show nothing but contempt and indifference to Our Lady..." [True Devotion to Mary, #30] |
Reminder: these promises mean that, by faithfully and devoutly praying the Rosary,
Our Lady will obtain for us the necessary Graces to obtain said promises.
It is still up to each individual soul to respond to those Graces in order to obtain salvation.
?
For me, Dante, whom I first tangled with in 1969, was, with Aquinas, a great push toward my rebirth. I agree with Lewis that the Comedy may be the greatest poem ever written. So the politics, complicated as they are, don't much concern me, except as the storehouse of material for metaphors.
I just reread, slowly, Canto XXVII of the Paradiso. The particulars of Peter's wrath at the then current papacy are, at this late date, not as important to me as the possibility of the wrath ... and also the wonderful description of the anger of the saints. The description of Beatrice's flush ... like that of a chaste woman hearing about the indiscretions of another ... priceless!
As one of my professors once said, “You'll find that the text sheds great light on the commentaries.” Nobody tells me what to think about Dante. I read him myself, and then get help for the details.
The fact that something is offered does not, in itself, show that I need it.
Since you mention indulgences:
>> The Handbook of Indulgences states, “A partial indulgence is granted the Christian faithful who read sacred Scripture with the veneration due God’s word and as a form of spiritual reading. The indulgence will be a plenary one when such reading is for at least one-half hour” <<
But I neither read Scripture nor pray the Rosary to gain an indulgence. I do both because I love to do them.
All these conversations end up being a general donnybrook about Catholic contra mundum. It’s boring.
But reason informed by the Magisterium give me all I need to say that John Paul II was extraordinary and Francis somewhat less so. This isn't remarkable. All you have to do is read some encyclicals.
As a man and as a thinker, Pope Francis is no more and no less subject to evaluation than any other man. Caricatures and exaggerations about Catholic docility do not serve the truth. I wonder whose ends it serves to misrepresent, intentionally or not, Catholic teaching.
It seems to have influenced the greater and more accurate allegory,
They were forbidding the reading of Protestant Bibles - which had books removed - primarily for two reasons:
1. The Reformers thought it was a good idea to go with the current Jewish scriptures as a basis for the Old Testament. Problem was, the then current scriptures had removed a number of books that they didn't like. So the 17th C. Jewish scriptures were not what Jesus and His Apostles read -- at the time, the LXX (Septuagint) was the current version. When Jesus quotes Scripture it's generally the LXX.
2. The Reformers also removed books that they thought were "too Catholic" such as Maccabees. Luther *almost* removed James but chickened out.
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