What Really Happened at Nicea?

The Council of Nicea is often misrepresented by cults and other religious movements. The actual concern of the council was clearly and unambiguously the relationship between the Father and the Son. Is Christ a creature, or true God? The council said He was true God. Yet, the opponents of the deity of Christ did not simply give up after the council’s decision. In fact, they almost succeeded in overturning the Nicene affirmation of Christ’s deity. But faithful Christians like Athanasius continued to defend the truth, and in the end, truth triumphed over error.

The conversation intensified quickly. “You can’t really trust the Bible,” my Latter-day Saints acquaintance said, “because you really don’t know what books belong in it. You see, a bunch of men got together and decided the canon of Scripture at the Council of Nicea, picking some books, rejecting others.” A few others were listening in on the conversation at the South Gate of the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City. It was the LDS General Conference, and I again heard the Council of Nicea presented as that point in history where something “went wrong,” where some group of unnamed, faceless men “decided” for me what I was supposed to believe. I quickly corrected him about Nicea — nothing was decided, or even said, about the canon of Scripture at that council.1

I was reminded how often the phrase “the Council of Nicea” is used as an accusation by those who reject the Christian faith. New Agers often allege that the council removed the teaching of reincarnation from the Bible.2 And of course, Jehovah’s Witnesses and critics of the deity of Christ likewise point to that council as the “beginning of the Trinity” or the “first time the deity of Christ was asserted as orthodox teaching.” Others see it as the beginning of the union of church and state in light of the participation of the Roman Emperor, Constantine. Some even say it was the beginning of the Roman Catholic church.

Father, Son, Spirit. One God, one essence, three divine attributes; eternal through the ages, working together and apart in divine harmony to bring about one perfect will.

There, did that clear it up. :O)

If you don't understand it, you're not alone. The Trinity is a very complicated mystery. It's like trying to describe a QQuait on the Planet Zendora for the first time.

All we know is that the Trinity is revealed to us in both the Old and New Testament. It is more complete in the New as this mystery has been (somewhat) revealed. John tells us that those who deny the eternal Father/Son relationship is evidence that they are unbelievers.

1Jn 2:21-26 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.

All world religions and views that denies our Lord Jesus as the Son of God, co-equal and co-eternal, regardless of anything else, is the antichrist.

**That’s heretical. The divine attributes did not come from the Father. They always existed as part of Christ’s divine nature.**

So you reject Christ own words when he credits the Father for all the divine words he spoke, and divine works that he did? That would seem heretical imo.

**That’s heretical. In the book of Luke we find our Lord Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit (Luk 1:35), was baptized and received power by the Holy Spirit (Luk 3:16), was led by the Holy Spirit (Luk 4:1), rejoiced in the Holy Spirit (Luk 10:21), casted out demons by the Holy Spirit (Matt 12:28), speaks the things of God by the Holy Spirit (Matt 10:20), and does miracles by the Holy Spirit (Luk 4:18). It isn’t a wonder that our Lord stated that blaspheme against the Spirit will not be forgiven.**

In the three separate and distinct persons of God idea, it seems that the Father gets very little credit. God the Son (unscriptural phrase) is the creator. God the Holy Spirit (another unscriptural phrase) did everything else, including fathering the Son’s physical body (the Son is the creator, but couldn’t do that /s ).

Christ declared that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 15:26), and that the Holy Spirit does not speak of himself, “but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak”.(16:13). If that sounds familiar, that’s because the Son said the same about himself in that he only spoke what the Father told him to. But the Holy Spirit wasn’t going to come and deliver inspired words until the Son went away.

On a side note: I have referred to the Holy Spirit as an “it” on this forum more than once, and was rebuked, but what says the scriptures: “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit...”. Rom. 8:16 KJV

** I’m not sure I see a distinction between saying “God the Son” or “Son of God”.**

That’s because of programming and habit. An American citizen that teaches English is commonly called an English teacher, but is actually an American teacher, teaching English. You are HarleyD of Free Republic, not Free Republic the HarleyD. The Son is OF God.

**Christ was in the beginning and all things were made by Christ and for Christ. The Word was with the Father (God) and the Word became flesh.**

Is your word separate and distinct from you? Your flesh isn’t your word. It is the vehicle used to express your word.

Isaiah 42:1-8 is good at showing God as the singular person he is. God the Father is the power that creates (42:5). That power was given to his “servant”. The Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father. Where is the Father not at?

**There is no good way to explain the Trinity in our limited understanding**

It helps to not use man made descriptions of the Godhead.

**I prefer to think of God as a fire in which parts of that fire takes on different forms.**

Fire is fire. It is the results of the power of fire that differ. Fire in a fireplace is good. Fire burning through the flue pipe wall is not good.

So you reject Christ own words when he credits the Father for all the divine words he spoke, and divine works that he did?

Scripture please. If you mean the following:

Joh 5:36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me.

It clearly states that the Father gave our Lord Jesus a mission for HIM to accomplish. He did this through the Holy Spirit.

In the three separate and distinct persons of God idea, it seems that the Father gets very little credit.

And there is your problem. God the Father is NOT distinct from the Son. The same credit given to the Son is given to the Father. Same way with the Holy Spirit. They share in the glory because they are ONE God. You can't separate them.

I can understand the rebuke. You may also want to investigate OTHER scripture verses such as:

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. KJV

As far as Rom 8:16, you may wish to check the Greek on that. "itself" is a reflective pronoun in the Greek which means the preceding word is to stand alone. Thus it is the Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, who stands alone (itself) with our spirit to bear witness to Christ. It is the Spirit's "job" to help us in our testimony of Christ. Other versions clear up this confusion of terms but John 14:26 should be enough to clear up the confusion even in the KJV.

Is your word separate and distinct from you? Your flesh isn’t your word. It is the vehicle used to express your word.

All I know is the scriptures tell us, "the Word became flesh and dwell among us". It also states that Christ is the Word of God. What that means I'm not sure but it is far more than talking. God spoke the universe into existence. That would be like me say, "I like a piece of French Toast", and it happens. I don't claim to understand. I just accept it.

It helps to not use man made descriptions of the Godhead.

The word "Trinity" may not appear in scripture but that does not invalidate the concept nor our understanding of what is described to us in the scripture. And since orthodoxy Christianity has accepted this term, it is the Holy Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that it is true.

The scriptures declare that the Son inherited all things from God. So there was either a time that the Son did not exist, or at least, had no divine attributes. But the Father did not have to die or go into retirement for the Son to receive those attributes. The Father is Spirit, and the Son is flesh.

You may not realize this or admit it, but you are arguing for the same heresy that Arius did which was the main reason the Council of Nicea was convened. From the OP:

http://www.equip.org/article/what-really-happened-at-nicea/

If you believe that the flesh was divine, separate and distinct from God the Father, then you are in the same camp as the followers of the RCC, and have to give Mary credit for making more of God (which is not possible).

Except that ISN'T what the Roman Catholics believe nor is it what Scripture teaches. The creed that came about from Nicea says:

We believe…in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is, from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one substance (homoousios) with the Father, through Whom all things were made….

There are many doctrines that Catholicism teaches that ARE orthodox and have been held from the very start of Christianity. I don't have a problem agreeing with them on these because they are Scriptural and come to us through the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, true God of True God, who is eternal and has always existed, by whom ALL things were made that were made. He is the Incarnation (became flesh) of God - God with us (Immanuel). Therefore, Jesus IS the God/man. The Son of God existed from all eternity but it was when He took on human flesh that He became the Son of Man. When He arose from the dead after the crucifixion, He appeared in His glorified body and this will be how we will see Him for all eternity. He IS God the Son - don't know why you have heartburn with that term.

I think your issue is with trying to comprehend an infinite truth with a finite mind - we have to accept certain things by faith because it IS what God has revealed to us. One day we WILL know as we also are known - but not yet today - when we have the mind of Christ.

HarlyD, From your post.

1Jn 2:21-26 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. W ho is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.

You underlined the wrong part, Zuriel has not denied the Father or the Son. I feel you have a much bigger problem in the preceding verse.

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?

Matthew 16:13-17King James Version (KJV)

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus is stating only a non spirit filled man would say he is god. He made the same point, to some degree, when Thomas called him god. He told him, “Seeing me is why you believe.” In other words, your unbelief made you think only a god could come back to life. Notice also He did not tell Thomas the same thing He told the other disciples about forgiving sin and did not blow the Holy Spirit on him.

Are you going to be a liar and not call Jesus the Christ, the anointed one of God as He and the Father claim or a god as men claimed 300 plus years after His death and resurrection?

You seem to have a hard time understanding Zuriel, stating in John, Jesus claiming His Father did the miracles thru Him. Maybe Peter will make it plain enough for you to understand the concept.

Acts 2:22-26King James Version (KJV)

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

May God our Father lead us to His truth? BVB

** “itself” is a reflective pronoun**

That’s fine. Will you admit that the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak of himself, but only what he hears? Will you admit that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father?

**It clearly states that the Father gave our Lord Jesus a mission for HIM to accomplish. He did this through the Holy Spirit.**

No the Son was not left alone to accomplish the mission: “And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.” John 8:29

And what about Isaiah 42:1-7? Who is doing the talking in verse 1, using “my”, “I”, and “mine”, in reference to himself, and “servant”, “him”, and “he”, where speaking of someone other than himself?

The same speaker claims to be the creator in verse 5, and addresses the servant in verse 6: “I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.”

The Lord Jesus had to explain the presence of the Father in him to his disciples (John 14:5-11), saying to Thomas in verse 7: “If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him”.

Still lacking understanding, Philip asks to see the Father. Jesus asks him, “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works”. Vss 9,10

I don’t know how folks can read those verses and not realize that the Father is the divine power in the Son, providing the anointing of the Spirit of God and “the angels of God ascending and descending” on the Son.

**..”Trinity”.......And since orthodoxy Christianity has accepted this term**

I accept: “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me...”. Is. 45:5 (and other similar verses)

**Scripture please.**

Here’s a list of words and references, showing who was the original provider of knowledge (and all other things divine as well):
gave: 3:16, 10:29, 12:49, 14:31
gavest: 17:4,6,8,12,22, 18:9
give: 14:6, 15:16, 16:23
given: 3:35, 5:26,27,36, 6:39,65, 7:39, 13:3, 17:2(2),7,8,9,11,24(2)
received: 10:18
send: 14:26, 15:26, 17:8, Acts 3:20
sent: 3:17,34, 4:34, 5:23,24,30,36,37,38, 6:29,38,39,40,44,57, 7:16,18,28,29,33, 8:16,18,26,29,42, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44,45,49, 13:16,20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3,18,21,23,25, 20:21
will (noun): 4:34, 5:30(2), 6:38,39,40, 7:17
will (verb): 5:20, 11:22, 12:26, 14:26, 15:26, 16:23
word and words (actually there are others that should be included, but the Son made it clear in the following ones whose ‘words’ they were): 3:34, 14:24, 17:6,8,14,17
work and works: 4:34, 5:20,36(2), 9:4, 10:25,37,38, 14:10, 17:4

doctrine: 7:16,17: “My doctrine is NOT mine, but HIS that SENT me. If any man will do HIS will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of GOD, or whether I speak of myself.”

That’s over 100 references (from the book of John alone) showing that the Son’s source of ALL things divine, ALL power, ALL wisdom, etc., is from God the Father. There are plenty more alluding to the same.

Can you quote a scripture that shows the FATHER receiving anything divine from the Son?

How could Jesus Christ overcome the world, if the Father had not been in him, giving the power to do all things? That is how the Son of God is Saviour of the world.

When you place the Father (Spirit) in the Son (divinely created flesh, with a divinely created soul), you have defined Jesus Christ in the simplest of terms.

I think the biggest problem Trinitarians have, is that they just don’t believe that the Father is indeed a Spirit, and is indeed omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. But, Jesus Christ said that to be the case, in his many words found in the book of John.

The scriptures don’t teach a “first person”, “second person”, or “third person”. Those are just a sampling of man modified opinions of the Godhead.

Don't get hung up on words people have historically used to explain Scriptural truths. The important thing is if the Scriptures teach the truth or not. We believe in ONE, true God but He has revealed in His word that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, three "persons" but still one God.

“..begotten, not made..” seems contradictory, especially when one reads this from Rev. 3:14: “..These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”

That may just be because you read "the beginning of the creation of God" and think it means Jesus had a beginning. But we know from other Scripture that without Jesus, NOTHING was made that was made and He existed BEFORE all things and by Him everything was created. This means Jesus was the originator or the source of creation. Also, that verse from Rev. 3:14 is also translated as:

To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God’s creation. (Berean Study Bible)

That does NOT contradict the creed nor other Bible verses. Sometimes it helps to look at other versions and also the Greek lexicon to see the words that were used. See http://biblehub.com/revelation/3-14.htm

I believe in the Trinity and I also believe that the Father is indeed a Spirit (John 4:24) as well as omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient, so I don't have this problem you suppose Trinitarians do.

Your confusion is because you don't accept or understand how one God can be three persons. This might help explain it How Can One God be Three Persons?:

Both Old and New Testaments teach the Unity and the Trinity of the Godhead. The idea that there is only one God, who created all things, is repeatedly emphasized in such Scriptures as Isaiah 45:18:

“For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the Earth and made it; …I am the Lord; and there is none else.”

A New Testament example is James 2:19:

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble.”

The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16:

“I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”

The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).

The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said: “But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me.”

Then there is the baptismal formula:
“baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).

One name (God) — yet three names!
JESUS — That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said:

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).

HOLY SPIRIT — Some cults falsely teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine influence of some kind, but the Bible teaches that He is a real person, just as are the Father and the Son. Jesus said:

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come” (John 16:13).

TRI-UNITY — The teaching of the Bible concerning the Trinity might be summarized thus. God is a Tri-unity, with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one. The three Persons appear in a logical, causal order. The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.

We “see” God and His great salvation in the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then “experience” their reality by faith, through the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit. Though these relationships seem paradoxical, and to some completely impossible, they are profoundly realistic, and their truth is ingrained deep in man's nature. Thus, men have always sensed first the truth that God must be “out there,” everywhere present and the First Cause of all things, but they have corrupted this intuitive knowledge of the Father into pantheism and ultimately into naturalism. Similarly, men have always felt the need to “see” God in terms of their own experience and understanding, but this knowledge that God must reveal Himself has been distorted into polytheism and idolatry. Men have thus continually erected “models” of God, sometimes in the form of graven images, sometimes even in the form of philosophical systems purporting to represent ultimate reality.

Finally, men have always known that they should be able to have communion with their Creator and to experience His presence “within.” But this deep intuition of the Holy Spirit has been corrupted into various forms of false mysticism and fanaticism, and even into spiritism and demonism. Thus, the truth of God's tri-unity is ingrained in man's very nature, but he has often distorted it and substituted a false god in its place.

You underlined the wrong part, Zuriel has not denied the Father or the Son.

Are you going to be a liar and not call Jesus the Christ, the anointed one of God as He and the Father claim or a god as men claimed 300 plus years after His death and resurrection?

You also states that men called our Lord Jesus "God" 300 years after his death. This is incorrect. Our Lord Jesus equated Himself to God and the Jews knew it.

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."

Christ also equated himself with God the Father:

Joh 14:89 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

You seem to have a hard time understanding Zuriel, stating in John, Jesus claiming His Father did the miracles thru Him.

I understand how difficult it is to understand the Trinity. It is best never to think or speculate on the essence of God. It always leads to trouble as it has here. However, to deny any part of the Trinity is to go down a very slippery slope. God is one essence but manifest Himself in three ways; Father, Son, Spirit. For further scriptural study on this I would refer you to the Westminster Confession Of God and the Holy Trinity:

Chapter II Of God, and of the Holy Trinity

I. There is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions;[7] immutable,[8] immense,[9] eternal,[10] incomprehensible,[11] almighty,[12] most wise,[13] most holy,[14] most free,[15] most absolute;[16] working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,[17] for His own glory;[18] most loving,[19] gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;[20] the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him;[21] and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments,[22] hating all sin,[23] and who will by no means clear the guilty.[24]
II. God has all life,[25] glory,[26] goodness,[27] blessedness,[28] in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He has made,[29] nor deriving any glory from them,[30] but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things;[31] and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases.[32] In His sight all things are open and manifest,[33] His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature,[34] so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain.[35] He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands.[36] To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.[37]
III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]
[1] DEU 6:4, [2] 1TH 1:9, [3] JOB 11:7-9, 26:14, [4] JOH 4:24, [5] 1TI 1:17, [6] DEU 4:15-16, JOH 4:24, LUK 24:39, [7] ACT 14:11, 15, [8] JAM 1:17, MAL 3:6, [9] 1KI 8:27, JER 23:23-24, [10] PSA 90:2, 1TI 1:17, [11] PSA 145:3, [12] GEN 17:1, REV 4:8, [13] ROM 16:27, [14] ISA 6:3, REV 4:8, [15] PSA 115:3, [16] EXO 3:14, [17] EPH 1:11, [18] PRO 16:4, ROM 11:36, [19] 1JO 4:8, [20] EXO 34:6-7, [21] HEB 11:6, [22] NEH 9:32-33, [23] PSA 5:5-6, [24] NAH 1:2-3, EXO 34:7, [25] JOH 5:26, [26] ACT 7:2, [27] PSA 119:68, [28] 1TI 6:15, ROM 9:5, [29] ACT 17:24, [30] JOB 22:2, [31] ROM 11:36, [32] REV 4:11, 1TI 6:15, DAN 4:25, 35, [33] HEB 4:13, [34] ROM 11:33-34, [35] ACT 15:18, EZE 11:5, [36] PSA 145:17, [37] REV 5:12-13, [38] I John 5:7, MATT 3:16-17, MATT 28:19, II COR 13:14, [39] JOHN 1:14,18, [40] JOHN 15:26

Will you admit that the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak of himself, but only what he hears?

I'm not sure what you are saying. It states:

Mar 12:36 David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, "'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet."'

Mar 13:11 And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

Luk_12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Joh_14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

The responsibility of the Holy Spirit is to teach us what to say.

Will you admit that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father?

Yes, it states that in scripture. The real question is what does it mean for the Holy Spirit to proceed from Christ. LOL trying to figure that one out.

No the Son was not left alone to accomplish the mission:

I never stated the Son was "left alone". I said our Lord Jesus was given a mission by God the Father. Christ said this "Not my will but the Father who sent me."

And what about Isaiah 42:1-7? ...The same speaker claims to be the creator in verse 5, and addresses the servant in verse 6: “I the LORD have called thee in righteousness...

It doesn't say Christ was created.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works”. Vss 9,10 I don’t know how folks can read those verses and not realize that the Father is the divine power in the Son...

Because there are OTHER verses which shows power coming from the Holy Spirit and our Lord Jesus. If you were to sort them all out and objectively study them, they add up a trinitarian makeup of God. We don't understand it. We simply know that it exists from multiple passages.

Can you quote a scripture that shows the FATHER receiving anything divine from the Son?

Mar 9:7 And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is my beloved Son; listen to him."

When you place the Father (Spirit) in the Son (divinely created flesh, with a divinely created soul), you have defined Jesus Christ in the simplest of terms.

I'm not saying Christ was created. Are you? Do you believe our Lord Jesus to have been created as you claimed in a previous post?

I think the biggest problem Trinitarians have, is that they just don’t believe that the Father is indeed a Spirit, and is indeed omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient.

I know of no Christian who would make this claim. The problem you have is that you're trying to separate the three. The Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE. Therefore, the Father, Son, and Spirit are omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient.

I will digress here to say that, as I said earlier, the Trinity is one of the most complicated doctrine in the Christian religion. We have been cautioned through the ages not to give too much thought to it. Many have shipwrecked their faith over trying to understanding the essence of God.

However, it is important to understand that of all the gods throughout the ages who have come and gone, the triune God stands unique. It is recorded from the earliest documents, all the way back in Genesis 1 when God stated "Let us...". It would be nearly impossible to have fabricated such a God as there is absolutely nothing close to this in history. It also bespeaks of the great and majestic God that we have who is in all and through all.

While we may not understand the Trinity, to deny the Trinity is simply not to understand God Himself.

**The doctrine of the Trinity — that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God.**

The explanation wastes no time in using phrases not found in the scriptures: “God the Son”, and “God the Holy Spirit”.

**The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16: “I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”**

That doesn’t make the Son of God, God the Son. The Son proceeds (sent) from the Father. The Son is “of” God. Likewise the Spirit of God is “of” God, for as the Son testified, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

**The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).**

When one enters an opinion based on a preconceived notion, you can find insertions that aren’t there: such saying the the speaker is “obviously God”.

Everything divine is traced back to God the Father.

More preconceived opinion:

**The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said: “But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me.”**

As pointed out before, two of those mentioned proceed from God the Father. That’s why they are “of” God.

**Then there is the baptismal formula: “baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).**

That is not a formula. That is a command, which when seen followed in sola scriptura, shows the name to be Jesus. The Son inherited his name. The Holy Ghost is sent in the name of the Son. The apostles (including Paul) baptized in the name of Jesus.

Only about three minutes. This link is to a oneness preacher’s testimony about a debate he had with a baptist minister while flying back to the US from the U.K.:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ABGW-K_1SyY

**“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).**

Do you not see the Father anywhere in that verse? Jesus Christ said he speaks the words that the Father gives him.

“The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass...”. Rev. 1:1

Out of time for now.

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