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To: Zuriel
So you reject Christ own words when he credits the Father for all the divine words he spoke, and divine works that he did?

Scripture please. If you mean the following:

It clearly states that the Father gave our Lord Jesus a mission for HIM to accomplish. He did this through the Holy Spirit.

In the three separate and distinct persons of God idea, it seems that the Father gets very little credit.

And there is your problem. God the Father is NOT distinct from the Son. The same credit given to the Son is given to the Father. Same way with the Holy Spirit. They share in the glory because they are ONE God. You can't separate them.

On a side note: I have referred to the Holy Spirit as an “it” on this forum more than once, and was rebuked, but what says the scriptures: “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit...”. Rom. 8:16 KJV

I can understand the rebuke. You may also want to investigate OTHER scripture verses such as:

As far as Rom 8:16, you may wish to check the Greek on that. "itself" is a reflective pronoun in the Greek which means the preceding word is to stand alone. Thus it is the Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, who stands alone (itself) with our spirit to bear witness to Christ. It is the Spirit's "job" to help us in our testimony of Christ. Other versions clear up this confusion of terms but John 14:26 should be enough to clear up the confusion even in the KJV.

Is your word separate and distinct from you? Your flesh isn’t your word. It is the vehicle used to express your word.

All I know is the scriptures tell us, "the Word became flesh and dwell among us". It also states that Christ is the Word of God. What that means I'm not sure but it is far more than talking. God spoke the universe into existence. That would be like me say, "I like a piece of French Toast", and it happens. I don't claim to understand. I just accept it.

It helps to not use man made descriptions of the Godhead.

The word "Trinity" may not appear in scripture but that does not invalidate the concept nor our understanding of what is described to us in the scripture. And since orthodoxy Christianity has accepted this term, it is the Holy Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that it is true.

105 posted on 08/13/2017 2:11:45 PM PDT by HarleyD (Ecc 10:2 A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to the left.)
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To: HarleyD; boatbums

** “itself” is a reflective pronoun**

That’s fine. Will you admit that the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak of himself, but only what he hears? Will you admit that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father?

**It clearly states that the Father gave our Lord Jesus a mission for HIM to accomplish. He did this through the Holy Spirit.**

No the Son was not left alone to accomplish the mission: “And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.” John 8:29

And what about Isaiah 42:1-7? Who is doing the talking in verse 1, using “my”, “I”, and “mine”, in reference to himself, and “servant”, “him”, and “he”, where speaking of someone other than himself?

The same speaker claims to be the creator in verse 5, and addresses the servant in verse 6: “I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.”

The Lord Jesus had to explain the presence of the Father in him to his disciples (John 14:5-11), saying to Thomas in verse 7: “If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him”.

Still lacking understanding, Philip asks to see the Father. Jesus asks him, “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works”. Vss 9,10

I don’t know how folks can read those verses and not realize that the Father is the divine power in the Son, providing the anointing of the Spirit of God and “the angels of God ascending and descending” on the Son.

**..”Trinity”.......And since orthodoxy Christianity has accepted this term**

I accept: “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me...”. Is. 45:5 (and other similar verses)

**Scripture please.**

Here’s a list of words and references, showing who was the original provider of knowledge (and all other things divine as well):
gave: 3:16, 10:29, 12:49, 14:31
gavest: 17:4,6,8,12,22, 18:9
give: 14:6, 15:16, 16:23
given: 3:35, 5:26,27,36, 6:39,65, 7:39, 13:3, 17:2(2),7,8,9,11,24(2)
received: 10:18
send: 14:26, 15:26, 17:8, Acts 3:20
sent: 3:17,34, 4:34, 5:23,24,30,36,37,38, 6:29,38,39,40,44,57, 7:16,18,28,29,33, 8:16,18,26,29,42, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44,45,49, 13:16,20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3,18,21,23,25, 20:21
will (noun): 4:34, 5:30(2), 6:38,39,40, 7:17
will (verb): 5:20, 11:22, 12:26, 14:26, 15:26, 16:23
word and words (actually there are others that should be included, but the Son made it clear in the following ones whose ‘words’ they were): 3:34, 14:24, 17:6,8,14,17
work and works: 4:34, 5:20,36(2), 9:4, 10:25,37,38, 14:10, 17:4

doctrine: 7:16,17: “My doctrine is NOT mine, but HIS that SENT me. If any man will do HIS will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of GOD, or whether I speak of myself.”

That’s over 100 references (from the book of John alone) showing that the Son’s source of ALL things divine, ALL power, ALL wisdom, etc., is from God the Father. There are plenty more alluding to the same.

Can you quote a scripture that shows the FATHER receiving anything divine from the Son?

How could Jesus Christ overcome the world, if the Father had not been in him, giving the power to do all things? That is how the Son of God is Saviour of the world.

When you place the Father (Spirit) in the Son (divinely created flesh, with a divinely created soul), you have defined Jesus Christ in the simplest of terms.

I think the biggest problem Trinitarians have, is that they just don’t believe that the Father is indeed a Spirit, and is indeed omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. But, Jesus Christ said that to be the case, in his many words found in the book of John.


108 posted on 08/13/2017 9:34:43 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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