Posted on 07/06/2017 6:09:50 AM PDT by Salvation
It is amazing to think that 30 of the first 33 Popes died as martyrs. Of the other three, two died in exile and only one died in his bed. Its hard to imagine such suffering today among the lowliest of priests let alone Church prelates.
On the Feast of St. Thomas Apostle (July 3rd) we read this description of the apostolic life by St. Paul:
As I see it, God has put us apostles at the end of the line, like men doomed to die in the arena. We have become a spectacle to the universe, to angels and men alike. We are fools on Christs account. Ah, but in Christ you are wise! We are the weak ones, you the strong! They honor you, while they sneer at us! Up to this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, poorly clad, roughly treated, wandering about homeless. We work hard at manual labor. When we are insulted we respond with a blessing. Persecution comes our way; we bear it patiently. We are slandered, and we try conciliation. We have become the worlds refuse, the scum of all; that is the present state of affairs (1 Cor 4:8-12).
As a priest reading this description, I dont whether I should feel grateful, or ashamed and embarrassed. Frankly, nothing describes our life today less than what St. Paul described. We clergy live rather comfortable, even privileged, lives.
The bishops of the Church are typically surrounded by staff, often layers of staff, insulating them from the lay faithful, who have little hope of ever being able to contact or speak with him directly. There are titles, seats of honor, and regal vesture with insignias.
As for us pastors and parish priests, we are often protected by staff as well. We live in rectories that are often well-appointed. Unlike the faithful we serve, we have job security and few personal financial concerns. We are given food, shelter, health insurance, and retirement benefits, and the people of God are enormously generous with us. Staff stand ready to assist in our administrative tasks, and repair and clean our homes and churches. Many of us even have cooks and laundresses. We too have our titles, seats of honor, and regal vesture.
It is so different from what St. Paul described and himself experienced!
It must be said that there are many priests and bishops who are generous and who live lives of sacrificial service. Many work long hours and seldom are those hours regular.
However, few of us are hungry, thirsty, or poorly dressed, let alone wandering about homeless. Manual labor has become almost unknown to many of us. Perhaps things should be that way. It makes sense that in a settled Church, the faithful should care for their clergy and set them apart so that the clergy may pray for them, study for them, and do the works that feed and form them spiritually.
Of greater concern to me, however, is the inability and even unwillingness of too many clergy to suffer as a result of preaching the Gospel as St. Paul describes. Paul speaks of the apostles as persecuted, slandered, roughly treated, considered refuse, sneered at, scorned, last in line, and like unto those doomed to die in the arena. Lest we think that this is mere Jewish hyperbole, recall that St. Paul himself was cast out of many a synagogue, flogged, stoned, run out of towns, jailed, shipwrecked, and finally martyred. All of this was because he preached the Word of God.
Yet we clergy today can hardly bear to have an eyebrow raised at us. Too many of us play it safe when it comes to preaching. Perhaps we are afraid of upsetting our benefactors. Or perhaps it is just the human tendency to avoid conflict, to want to be liked and to fit in. Perhaps for some (I pray only a few) it is the fear that clerical advancement might be hindered by preaching too boldly or even just preaching clearly.
The lay faithful notice that many of us avoid Gospel teachings that are too challenging. They notice the retreat into abstractions, generalities, and even obfuscation. Indeed, they notice that many clergy dare not risk offense or the pain that comes from being the object of anothers anger and opposition.
Even if we modern clergy are far from Pauls experience of homelessness and hunger, we ought not to be so far from his experience of persecution and suffering for the Word of God. As the Directory for the Ministry and Life of Priests and the Second Vatican Council teach, the Word of God is the primum officium (the first or primary duty) of the priest (See Presbyterorum Ordinis # 4). This is because no one can be saved who does not first believe, and faith proclaimed is necessary to unlock the sacraments. If we dont get our preaching and teaching right and are not willing to suffer if necessary, then we dont have anything else right.
I am less concerned about the fact that we clergy no longer live in abject poverty than that we may have become soft on account of the comforts that have been extended to us. Our comfortable lives have made some of us soft and given us the sense that we have too much to lose. Unlike St. Paul, we can hardly bear the slightest critique or scorn. We even fear that children wont like us, wont think were cool. It is hard to imagine most of us being willing to join Paul in jail, at the flogging post, in the stoning pit, or shipwrecked on the way to execution. We might even be among the naysayers who would say, Paul is too extreme. He is too certain and argumentative. Frankly, most of us modern clergy would find the real Jesus shocking, too.
It has been my experience that the people of God can handle strong preaching more than we clergy think. Indeed, many are outright appreciative of courageous, bold, and clear preaching. Even if we encounter resistance, though, we are supposed to preach anyway: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction (2 Tim 4:2).
We do not seek a fight or to provoke anger, but if we preach the Gospel in season and out of season, anger and fights often find us. Does the persecution on account of the Word described by Paul even remotely resemble anything we face in modern clerical life? And if not, why not?
What I say to priests, I say to parents, to elders, and to every Catholic baptized and sharing in the prophetic office of Christ.
NO
Coupla things in response to your post and the thread.
1: Your situation is a little similar to mine, except for the fact that I didn’t walk away from a Catholic church, I walked away from an ELCA Lutheran church. They didn’t speak Latin but they might as well have spoken Latin, considering the unfortunate SJW gobbeldygook that they KEPT ON SPOUTING. It was like I was thirsty but they kept on giving me salt water. Went to a small startup LCMS congregation at age 19 and never looked back. Now just a month ago I was ordained as an LCMS pastor, and I credit huge swaths of that to the fact that I FINALLY got to hear Jesus being preached.
2: We here in the Missouri Synod (and it really should be all Lutherans, but the ELCA has drunk the SJW Kool-Aid) make a point to preach both Word and Sacrament. Sacrament being defined as something physical that has the Word attached to it, specifically for the purpose of delivering God’s grace. (Now that’s a little complicated; we still believe in salvation by grace through faith, but for now let’s just say that belief in Christ is what saves, just that the manner of that belief can come in pure Word, but also in the Word attached to the waters of baptism or the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion. Aaaanyways.) But the focus HAS to be on the work of Christ, not our own works. We can’t work our way into eternal life; he died for us. A church service that doesn’t have the Word is no worship at all.
3: I am just praying that if the persecution that Paul speaks about arrives, that I will have the strength and the faith to persevere through it.
After reading your post, I just figured I might as well share my own experiences between churches where Jesus is central and churches where Jesus is... not.
You mean watching the same play, with prescribed largely perfunctory prayers and responses, ritual readings, and a 10 minute sermonette by “priests” in ostentatious garments is not what you see in the record of the NT testament church (rhetorical ?)
***
I often have fun answering rhetorical questions, so I’ll answer yours! In a positive way, I hope!
As for your question, the answer comes as well, that depends!
I’ve done some research into the earliest churches, and from what we can tell, there WAS a certain amount of ritual and recitation. At the very least over the Lord’s Supper, as well as the confession of faith in the Creeds, which came into being before the Bible was compiled. Some of the earliest canons of Scripture were compared to the earliest Creeds in order to ensure that they were ACTUALLY the Word, and not just Bible fan-fic.
At the same time, Jesus DID blast the people who recited overly-long prayers without any meaning to them.
So.
I suppose the difference is, is the Word in that ritual, and does it have meaning for the church, or do we just do it because we’ve always done it, and is nothing more than empty words?
The rates of child molestation in non-Catholic churches is far higher. Check it out.
***
1: Prove it. Preferably a breakdown by denomination, not just lumping it all together.
2: Did the churches in question throw them out or try to hide it, like the Roman hierarchy did?
“The rates of child molestation in non-Catholic churches is far higher. Check it out.”
All molestations are wrong. Perhaps you old come right out and say so?
You did not get that from the inspired record of the NT church, and i think the last book was penned by about 90 AD.
Not that any amount of ritual and recitation must be bad, and there was some ritual in baptism, ordination and anointing of the sick. And we all have some ritual in our life, and and recitation "Praise the Lord!") in our life. But the born from above believer is to be sensitive to the Lord's leading in obeying Scripture, and be ready to change our plans accordingly, and not become set in our ritual practices. However, as regards church meetings, what we see in the descriptions of NT meetings in Acts onward is not the Catholic theater described before, and sometimes not what you see in typical evangelical meetings.
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. (1 Corinthians 14:26)
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed. And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted. (Acts 20:7-12)
You can not judge ALL priests by such a small sampling.
Well done.
Now take a closer look and see that most of the abuse occurred in ‘churches’ that were left-leaning at best, and fewer in conservative denominations.
The point I try to make here is that the enemy is not Catholic, nor is it Protestant, nor evangelical.
The enemy is the godless left that is trying to infiltrate ALL churches. Unfortunately it is approaching critical mass in Catholicism, and if history is any message here, there’s either going to be a massive schism or the left steamrolling all dissent.
Denials and cover-ups don’t help; we all need to clean house and we need to do so ASAP.
You did not get that from the inspired record of the NT church, and i think the last book was penned by about 90 AD.
***
No, I didn’t get it out of the Bible, but I did get some information out of contemporary historians.
It’s not canonical, but it does provide some information of how things worked. The record is sadly extremely incomplete, but there were records of common prayers spoken over the Lord’s Supper.
IN Scripture, Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11 and the similarities suggest that there was a formula already in use for the Lord’s Supper before either of those writings were penned.
Though also from what we can tell, the extreme ritualized worship of the Catholic churches was NOT in effect. Communal worship was more like a communal meal combined with preaching and teaching. (And we see that part in Scripture too, just from what you posted.)
I’m not trying to pick a fight of course; this is just a subject I’m passionate about, and I had some information to add to the discussion!
Understood. The difference btwn instituting what the NT record of the church manifests them to have believed, versus being institutionalized.
The answer; of course; is no.
But the REAL question is...
Does Rome still teach the simple truth as St. Paul ETAL did in the beginning?
As did Lot.
He LIKED living on the well watered plain.
Genesis 13:10
Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
Leviticus niv
18:22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.
2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
But there IS hope!!!
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...
Amen!
You just described FR Catholics to a "T"!
NOT with pinking shears!
Well; except for that ONE thing...
HMMMmmm...
That must mean that half of them were TRUE.
WHY didn't I read ahead??
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