Posted on 06/30/2017 11:07:56 AM PDT by NRx
Inside baseball, but pretty funny nonetheless.
+1
Henry VIII was on to something.
What we are seeing is a struggle between the “liberal” Modernists and “conservative” Modernists. There may be a few stealth Catholics in the hierarchy, but as long as they remain silent they are complicit.
I doubt he’s shocked.
You don’t think even the four Cardinals who responded to Francis’ papal exhortation are traditional Catholics?
I can see why he would have been shocked. Otoh, you may know Muller’s personality and motives better than I do.
Right. It’s the remarriage part that is the issue.
Thanks.
piusv:
The first marriage was sacramentally null and void, although maybe the Couple did not seek an annulment at the time due to poor catechesis or just wayward young people who sort of were prodigal sons and daughters. Perhaps they were two graduate students at a University who were doing their graduate thesis or Phd in similar fields and the relationship was based on a purely transactional basis, they were attracted to each other and maybe they saw each other as colleagues and friends doing research together.
The idea of entering into a marriage based on Christian Love, giving oneself to the Other fully never entered the equation when those 2 were in graduate school. One of them who had lapsed got married and over the 2nd marriage, now 30 years or more long started to view marriage in line with Catholic teaching on the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.
In that case I described above, is it possible (hypothesis) that the person could be admitted to Holy Communion with the understanding that the person (couple) will work with his/her Diocese/local Priest to get the marriage valid sacramentally.
Again, I am only outlining a hypothesis, which in some, not all, maybe not most, cases is a real situation that some Catholics find themselves in.
I think the position I outlined above is consistent with the Eastern Orthodox view and the Catholic Church has never said (at least to my knowledge) at anytime post West/East Schism (1095 AD) that the Orthodox sacraments were not valid.
Is it possible he was shocked? Yes. My post merely stated that I doubt it.
I still don’t see why this same couple wouldn’t need to seek and receive a valid annulment for the first marriage before receiving communion. Regardless of what they or others think of the first marriage (and their current Christian love) it can not be considered null and void until it is declared such by the Catholic Church. Of course, we still have the added issue that there are way too many annulments granted, but I digress.
These four men also still profess and teach the world that Vatican II is as Catholic as all the Magisterium that came before it.
Now that the 6th and 9th commandments are the latest target by the latest Modernist in the Chair of Peter, some Catholics are realizing something's amiss. The problem is that this is just the latest manifestation of the Vatican II revolution. Something's been amiss since the 1st commandment was targeted decades ago.
Interesting.
piusv:
I am not actually disagreeing with you. I understand partially with that Francis is doing in the case I described above. Someone is showing signs of seeing marriage in the Catholic sense and rather than turn them away, allowing the person to partake Holy Communion could be what finally gets the person to get a valid annulment.
It is a merciful gesture by the Church. So rather than turning that person away and causing him and her to move further away from getting their marriage valid sacramentally, they move to finally get it done.
As for why some people don’t go get a valid annulment, to be quite honest, given the state of catechesis the last 40 years, I am not sure most understand what an annulment says. There are still people who think it means that any children are illegitimate, that is nonsense, the terms “bastard” come out English common law and have to do with legal rights inheritance, or in the case of kings and princes, who could succeed in the order political leadership. Regardless of what common law says or does not says, if a couple had a child together, that child is theirs. Period.
Now the question I have with Pope Francis apostolic letter is how does this get implemented from diocese to diocese. Can some priests and bishops use this letter to justify and let everyone receive communion, then that would be a problem.
Sort of like only Nixon could go to China, Reagan could enter détente with Gorbachev, I would have much rather the pastoral letter be issued the late John Paul II or Benedict, because I would trust them to ensure that the implementation of it did not become a reason to allow all Catholics in irregular marriages to receive communion
btw, good questions and discussion, really got me thinking.
The Church has never used Holy Communion as a way to get someone to repent, change their ways, and seek out an annulment. She has never allowed a person who is objectively in mortal sin to receive communion. That couple may attend mass as they work towards righting their situation, but they can not receive communion until the marriage is annulled. Period. Yes, black and white. Not grey. That's how the Catholic Church works. That's how you make sure there is unity.
What Francis is doing is completely novel and goes against Catholic teaching. Under no circumstances should any Catholic support it or explain it away as even possibly valid.
That's the problem. They're not seeing marriage in a "Catholic sense" and neither does Bergoglio.
ebb tide:
You are correct they have not totally, but they are showing signs of faith, the fact that maybe after 20 years in their 2nd marriage they are regularly attending mass, after not attending since maybe High School (before the marriage in college while in Graduate School that I mentioned earlier occurred) could be used to get their marriage valid.
I know of a friend of mine who had left the Church and was basically non-religious, someone who is an academic, quite smart guy. When his Mother died I believe he went to the Funeral mass and the Priest told the members their family and friends who were baptized Catholic, but had been away from the Church for years, that he would give them communion. However, if asked them if you do so, I am asking you to make an obligation before God and to yourself to go to Confession as soon as you can, etc. From that I think if I remember correctly he got his marriage sacramentally valid got real involved in the parish he and I were in and he became and excellent lay Catechist in the parish (he was a Latin and French professor at a University in the area).
So I have seen cases where the approach I outlined earlier and above have brought individuals back to full communion. Not saying it will work everytime or for everyone, but in some cases, yes.
Now will some liberal priest take Francis’ letter and use it to promote crazy stuff like woman priests, blessing same sex unions, probably so. Doesn’t mean that will become accepted as Doctrine. Have to trust Holy Spirit will protect the Church with respect to holding Doctrine Firm, even though some Priests and Bishops may go off the railroad tracks.
That priest was wrong and committed a mortal sin himself. I'm sorry you don't understand that.
ebb tide:
Well, I am not going to say he committed a mortal sin? You may feel you are able to do so, not me.
So you're still promoting giving communion to someone who has not first gone to confession in years. This priest was absolutely wrong and is probably a modernist as well. In addition, you are making the conclusion that because this man received communion illictly (at best) that this is what brought him back to the Faith. Wow.
No I am not actually promoting anything. If I feel I have a sin that needs to be confessed, I refrain from Communion until Confession. That is me.
Whether or not this priest sinned I will not say nor will I say that man sinned. There are the Norms but their are exceptions. The Catholic Church allows Orthodox to receive communion in the Catholic Church. In extreme, extreme, extreme, situations, lets say natural or military type situation, I do believe a protestant can receive if they ask and profess a faith in the sacrament (correct me if I am wrong).
The priest was very specific, he asked them to make an act of contrition of some sort before communion and go to confession as soon as possible. Modernist or not, I don’t know. If I were the priest, maybe I do something different.
As for the man I speak of, that is the story he told me as we worked together teaching RCIA (for about 5 years together) in the early 2000’s.
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