Introduction Thread to "Final Authority"

Grady Publishing ^ | March 15, 1993 | William Grady

[Pilgrim's Progress]

We are going to go through this book in a very slow fashion - no hurry.

This subject is completely a matter of faith. Those that reject or do not possess a particular preference for the King James Bible are welcome to visit and participate - but this is not an argument thread. I am not responsible to convince anyone against his or her will.

Either you have faith in a God that is able to preserve His Word or you do not - but you are not going to convince us to reject our faith that the King James Bible is the ONLY Bible that God is blessing for the English Speaking people. And He has been doing it for the past 406 years

If you want on or off the PING list please Freepmail me, thanks.

[WhatNot]

No. He spoke through prophets who were not all just Hebrew-speaking.

Uh, this is the first I heard that God's word was in written in another language, aside from Hebrew. I always thought the "Biblical Scholars" were in agreement that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew (except for a very small portion of Daniel)and that it was divinely given to the Jews.

[af_vet_1981]

Your whole premise is flawed. It is a detestable insult to the grace of God in that you infer favoritism on God’s part.

Righteous Gentiles are grafted onto Israel, and remain, if they continue in His goodness.

He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord.

...

Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Psalms, Catholic chapter one hundred forty seven, Protestant verses nineteen to twenty,"

Matthew, Catholic chapter fifteen, Protestant verses twenty one to twenty eight,


as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[unlearner]

A simple-minded person, who has trouble grasping simple concepts, should avoid gloating about their mastery of a subject they know nothing about.

You’ve come on this thread lambasting people and the Bible itself from a position of complete and total ignorance. And the ignorance might be excusable if you had the humility to admit you were ignorant. But no, you boast. You berate. You blast away.

How dare you call all modern English translations of the scriptures “perversions?”

Some are and some are not, but you do not know the difference. Yet that does not keep you from foolishly lashing out.

Take the time to read the preface to the KJV by the translators. The very same foolish, ungodly attacks you’ve made right here on this thread, are the same ones the opponents of the KJV translators encountered during their early translations and revisions. Yes, they made revisions. That’s because they are translators, not prophets or oracles. Yet you mock the efforts by men who have dedicated their lives to provide the scriptures into the common language of people, TODAY.

Your hypocrisy and ignorance would be laughable if they were not so tremendously offensive and damaging to the cause of Christ.

Show some fear of God and respect for His Word.

It is wearisome to deal with someone who does not bother to read, research, study, or listen. Just thoughtless responses and expecting other people to do a jig for you. But not so much as a thanks for doing the heavy lifting that you will not bother to do for yourself.

If you really are a seeker of truth and care for the Word of God, then take some time to study and learn about the topic you are debating. Otherwise, listen and learn something rather than mocking those things which are beyond your immediate knowledge.

[WhatNot]

You're not a very good teacher if you can't a answer simply question. I'll give you more chance just to be fair.

Is it true or is it false that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew (except for a very small portion of Daniel)and that it was divinely given to the Jews?

No long cut and pastes soap box speeches, just answer the question and then we can move on to the rest of the discussion.

[unlearner]

“Righteous Gentiles are grafted onto Israel, and remain, if they continue in His goodness.”

Though close, that’s not quite correct.

Believing Gentiles have been made righteous and grafted into an olive tree in order to bear fruit. Christ is the root of that olive tree, not Israel. Israel is represented by branches, some of which were broken off because of unbelief. But Israel will be brought to repentance and faith as a nation, and the branches will be grafted back in again. See Romans 11.

It is true that Jesus ministered primarily to Israel. However, there were believing Gentiles and Samaritans who received Christ’s blessings and healing. The scriptures you cited contain a mention of this. In other places He marveled how foreigners had more faith than the Israelites.

Paul was wrongly accused of teaching that God had abandoned Israel and broken His promises. He makes a special point to correct this libel. Paul pointed out that he himself was an Israelite. But, as a nation, they remain in unbelief.

God dealt with them as His chosen earthly people. This was and is a special position of favor God has given to the Jews. However, it is not favoritism. To whom much is given, much is required.

We do see signs of national repentance in the Old Testament. It never really happened to the fullest extent. There were times Israel cooperated with God nationally. Israel once promised to keep God’s laws, but they didn’t (and couldn’t but needed to realize that). There were times when Israel cried to God to rescue her. But the day when all of Israel is going to be saved has not arrived yet.

Likewise, no other nations fully repented and turned to God either. We do see Nebuchadnezzar making a decree to honor the God of Israel throughout his empire. We do see the repentance of Nineveh, the capital of the kingdom of Assyria. But God has not dealt with any nation like He has with Israel, no nation has had the privileges of God’s revealed knowledge to the extent Israel has.

And Gentile believers have received many privileges and benefits through our connection with Israel in Christ.

[unlearner]

“You’re not a very good teacher”

You are not my student. You are not in charge of my time, agenda, or message.

I do not dance when you take out your flute and play it.

You have no reverence for the Word of God while attacking people about their adherence to the Word of God.

I will be happy to address questions from someone who truly has an interest in the truth rather than a mocker who is stubborn, proud, and unrepentant.

You complain about long, well-researched, well-documented posts because you are too lazy to read, too stubborn to listen, and too proud to consider your error.

It took me a long time to assemble those posts. But you insult them, in the same trifling way as you do with the Word of God.

My posts are filled with the scriptures for which you have no reverence.

They are there for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

It would do no good to equip you with any answers to the questions you seek. You are like the Pharisees who did not even know the right questions to ask.

When you can own up to your own moral failure and humble yourself, not before me, but before God, then you may be ready to learn something.

Right now, you have been called out for grave sin which has no place in the life of a professed follower of Christ. If you are truly His, He will convict your heart and bring a godly sorrow to repentance. Then you will be able to learn from Him. And I will be glad to help you then, if I can.

But right now, providing you knowledge is like educating a hardened criminal in prison. They get out and use their knowledge to commit worse crimes.

First, get your heart right with God. Then you can engraft His word with meekness as James describes.

Here is the thing you need to know about scripture: The purpose of learning about the Bible is to come to know Christ. All scripture is about Him.

John 5:39 (KJV)
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me [i.e Jesus].

[WhatNot]

You write so much and say so little. Here's another chance to answer the question.

Is it true or is it false that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew (except for a very small portion of Daniel)and that it was divinely given to the Jews?

Again, resist the urge to jump up on your soapbox and just answer the question.

[af_vet_1981]

Righteous Gentiles are grafted onto Israel, and remain, if they continue in His goodness.”

Though close, that’s not quite correct

The grafting described by the Apostle to the Gentiles is that righteous Gentiles are grafted onto the olive tree, among the natural branches, not onto the root itself. With the natural branches, they partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Romans, Catholic chapter eleven, Protestant verses thirteen to twenty four,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[unlearner]

I’m not on Free Republic to jump through your hoops or follow your agenda.

For those who have a true interest in the truth, they can read what I’ve written. It’s not for you.

[WhatNot]

I wasn't asking you to jump through any hoops, and I wasn't asking you to follow my agenda or anyone else's agenda. I was just hoping you would answer a simple question:

Is it true or is it false that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew(except for a very small portion of Daniel) and that it was divinely given to the Jews?

But if you prefer not to answer that's fine.

[unlearner]

“The grafting described by the Apostle to the Gentiles is that righteous Gentiles are grafted onto the olive tree, among the natural branches, not onto the root itself. With the natural branches, they partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.”

What Paul is describing is atypical. While this may have been done sometimes in the real world as a way to get natural olive branches to produce more fruit, the usual grafting was of natural branches from a cultivated olive tree into a wild olive tree. Why? Because olive trees take time to grow, and years to bear fruit.

But if you take a wild olive tree and transplant new olive tree shoots, the “fatness” of the wild, more mature olive tree will supply it with the nutrition it needs to bear fruit sooner.

Paul was writing this to Roman believers who were a unique group. This was the one city where a local church was established without any apostles directly doing so. Jewish converts to Christ who believed in Acts 2 went back to their homes in Rome and began meeting as a church. They won Gentile converts. Later, the emperor expelled all Jews from Rome, including the Christian Jews.

So the Roman church was, probably at the time of Paul’s writing, made up of Gentile Christians that had not been subject directly to the teaching of apostles. Some had become proud and began to believe they were superior to the Jewish believers. Paul uses language to demonstrate the interdependence of believers. Gentiles have a great privilege to become partakers of the “commonwealth” of Israel. God is using the salvation of Gentiles to provoke Jews to jealousy, to return to faithfulness to God by way of repentance and belief on Christ.

All analogies break down. I am not meaning to contradict your point other than to emphasize that Gentile believers are grafted into Christ. Our connection is directly with Him. We do not become Jews. It might be proper to say we are God’s Heavenly chosen people, the Israel of Heaven or Israel of God. But this includes all followers of Christ, Jews and Gentiles. The bottom line here is that we do not have access to Christ by becoming Jewish. We have access to the privileges enjoyed by Israel through our relationship with Christ.

[unlearner]

“I was just hoping you would answer a simple question”

You have simple questions. The answers are for people who are interested in following Christ.

It is a complete waste of time to address the simplest of matters, such as this, when the person engaged has no interest in actually obeying scriptures. You have no respect for scripture.

It really makes no difference, as far as such a person is concerned, whether the Bible was written in Greek, Hebrew, or Klingon.

The Bible is only going to heap greater and greater judgment on such a person.

Start with repentance and faith. As John told the Pharisees to show some evidence of genuine repentance.

The Bible teaches self-examination. If someone warned me that I had committed a serious offense against the Word of God, I would at least seriously consider if it was so. Then I would make an honest assessment and respond accordingly.

Why do you insist on debating about a book you have no reverence and respect for? But if you do respect it, why don’t you demonstrate that by doing what it says and showing so by your words?

[WhatNot]

[unlearner]

Lazy about reading posts. Lazy about writing them. Lazy about fact checking. Lazy about sourcing images.

No zeal for repentance either, I see.

For someone who seems to be more interested in debating for its own sake than finding the truth, you sure make it easy to win the argument.

If you put half the effort into correcting yourself that you put into trying to debate someone, you might avoid lots of tragedy and pain in your future.

When it comes, and it will, perhaps you will have the presence of mind to recall my warning to you. And then it may occur to you to heed the message and address the real problem you have.

I’ll pray that is the case. But you will have to go through some pain to learn not to blaspheme God’s Word.

And I’ll use the NKJV, with its less offensive language for the modern English speaker, to provide a Biblical reference here:

Hebrews 12:5-11
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

May the Lord honor His Word.

[WhatNot]

[WhatNot]

I don't know if you realize how unhinged you appear to people. But to sit there with your sanctimonious attitude pretending to be some holier than thou person when really you are filled with nothing more than fear and loathing is beyond ridiculous.

You know, as well as I do or as well as anyone with half a brain that if you were to answer my question honestly, your whole doctrine would fall to pieces. That is why you refuse to answer the question, not for the reasons you gave, which by the way makes you a liar.

No one in their right mind would sit there and claim to have won an argument when they know that in order to do so, they must first be willing to defend their side of the argument. Your to want to declare victory in a battle that you haven't even begun to fight. I would suggest you get back to your video games, I'm sure that with all the cheat codes you have you win all those battles.

[af_vet_1981]

Paul was writing this to Roman believers who were a unique group. This was the one city where a local church was established without any apostles directly doing so.

Is this an example of Sola Scriptura or a tradition ? I did not find it in the text.

I am not meaning to contradict your point other than to emphasize that Gentile believers are grafted into Christ.

My post, my point, the scriptures, wrote that the "righteous Gentiles were grafted onto the olive tree, among the natural branches, not onto the root itself." I assume the Messiah is the root of the olive tree. Do you have a text that indicates the Messiah is the olive tree ?

[unlearner]

“But to sit there with your sanctimonious attitude pretending to be some holier than thou person when really you are filled with nothing more than fear and loathing is beyond ridiculous.”

The only time you put any thought or effort into a post is when it revolves around how it makes you look. You are very concerned with appearances. Much more concerned with this than whether something is true, right, or honoring to God.

You have no way of seeing my heart. God does. Fear and loathing? I fear God, as I am supposed to. I loath detestable lies and blasphemies, as I am supposed to.

You have repeatedly mocked the Word of God and others who profess faith in Christ to defend a doctrine that is manmade and can not be supported by the Bible, including the KJV Bible. And yet when you are called out for this SIN, you lash out.

When God’s people are confronted by their own sin, at times when the Word of God comes and tells them “thou art the man,” they do not bristle up and defend themselves and justify their iniquities. They do not attack the messenger.

“You know, as well as I do or as well as anyone with half a brain that if you were to answer my question honestly”

More mockery. More demands that I follow YOUR agenda. More false accusations.

“your whole doctrine would fall to pieces”

You don’t even know what my doctrine is. We are discussing, not whether the KJV is the Word of God. It is. Is that the doctrine you intend to reprove me for?

When you slander ALL other translations, you are committing a sin that I have ALREADY PROVED the translators of the KJV would condemn. By THEIR OWN WORDS, YOU are condemned. They did not share your false doctrine of KJV ONLY.

“That is why you refuse to answer the question, not for the reasons you gave, which by the way makes you a liar.”

As God is my witness I have not lied, and I have no fear of debating you or anyone else on this forum about the authority of God’s Word. May God judge between me and you for blaspheming the Word of God and falsely accusing me in the name of Christ. Christ is the righteous judge, and He will examine both of us. We will both be accountable to Him.

My problem with debating you is first and foremost that you have blasphemed scripture and want to change the subject to strifes over words.

1 Timothy 6:4 (KJV)
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

“No one in their right mind would sit there and claim to have won an argument when they know that in order to do so, they must first be willing to defend their side of the argument.”

I’m not sure what you mean. What you proved by your silly, childish picture post was exactly what I described. You are lazy when it comes to the Word of God, lazy when it comes to self-examination, lazy when it comes to listening, but oh so quick to retort when you are questioned.

Are you aware that your picture posts are not working? I know what you posted (the soap box image) by going to the source and pulling it up. But the image that everyone else sees is that your photobucket account does not have 3rd party hosting enabled. And I was pointing out that this error in judgment was just typical of your side of this whole conversation. You thought you could quickly slap up a funny, mocking photo in response to my numerous posts of the Word of God, for which you have no respect. I’ve even posted them in the version you supposedly hold to be sacrosanct.

You minimize the work and effort of others to compile reasoned responses using the Word of God. It is the same, contemptuous attitude you have toward the Holy Scriptures when you blaspheme them.

I did not claim to win a debate with you over the languages of the scripture. I simply refused to engage in that debate. You wrongly assumed my motives for doing this. I told you plainly why. But you did not get it. And the reason is becoming clear to me. You apparently do not have eyes that see or ears that hear.

If someone said to me that I had blasphemed the Word of God, I would be stunned. I would ask where and when. I would seek to clarify my meaning and intention. If I had accidentally posted something I did not mean, I would have corrected it with the deepest of apologies. What I would not do is change the subject. I would not skip the blasphemy issue to debate math, grammar, history, or some other scholarly pursuit. I would go straight to the important issue.

For you this is trivial. No big deal. You merely blasphemed the Word of God on a thread discussing the authority of the Bible while claiming to be a follower of Christ and also meanwhile attacking and demeaning other professed believers. And then, to top it all off, when your behavior is challenged you want to lash out at the person reproving you.

Can you claim with a straight face, after being confronted with these things, that your heart is right with God? Do you even know if your heart is right with Him? Have you bothered to ask Him lately? Have you asked Him to correct and instruct you?

I have. I do constantly. I want to learn how to be like Jesus. I’m not there yet. I’m a long way from it. But I am also striving for it. And if I’m wrong about something in the Bible, including what English version I should be using, then I want to know. And I’ll receive it from God directly, or through people God sends my way, or through the mouth of a donkey if He so chooses.

How about you?

The Bible makes it very clear how the wise man and the fool respond differently to rebuke:

Proverbs 15:12, 31-33 (KJV)
A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise...
The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise.
He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.
The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

“That is why you refuse to answer the question, not for the reasons you gave, which by the way makes you a liar.”

You do not know my motives, and God will hold you accountable for your slander. But it is a small thing to me to be called a liar by you. You have called God a liar by mocking His word.

I enjoy debating with truth seekers. I enjoy it even if I am proved wrong. I want to know the truth. I want to be corrected if I am wrong. I pray this continually to God. And when I do engage in such debates, I argue my case, and I also listen.

When I see a thread labeled “Catholic Caucus” promoting Mary worship, I don’t bother clicking it. They have no interest in being corrected, and there is nothing that I am going to learn from idolaters about how to worship God.

And I will happily debate the languages, sources, validity of the Bible with someone who is interested in the truth. I’m not really interested in what a blasphemer of the Word of God thinks about the Bible.

“I would suggest you get back to your video games, I’m sure that with all the cheat codes you have you win all those battles.”

I don’t play video games. So far you’ve been 100% on every accusation or assumption you’ve made about me. 100% wrong.

But that is not the least bit surprising when you are unwilling to OBEY the Bible you supposedly believe.

1 Corinthians 11:28 (KJV)
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV)
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

[WhatNot]

I see you’re doubling down on your soapbox babbling.

[unlearner]

“I did not find it in the text.”

Paul wrote the book of Romans, not surprisingly, to all of the believers in Rome:

Romans 1:7
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

There were thousands of devout Jews converted to Christ at Pentecost, when Holy Spirit came down, and the Church began. These included many visitors from Rome:

Acts 2:10
Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes...

There was also a scattering of believers, other than the apostles, away from Jerusalem:

Acts 8:1
Now Saul was consenting to his death. At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

And here is the Biblical record of Jews, including Jewish Christians, being kicked out of Rome:

Acts 18:1-2
After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth. And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome); and he came to them.

When Paul wrote the book of Romans, he had not traveled there yet:

Romans 1:13
Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles.

“I assume the Messiah is the root of the olive tree. Do you have a text that indicates the Messiah is the olive tree?”

I was not contradicting your assumption. The passage is telling us that we, Gentiles, have become partakers of the “root and fatness” of the olive tree. What I was describing to be not precisely correct in your first statement is “Righteous Gentiles are grafted onto Israel.” Gentile Christians are grafted into Christ, not into Israel. Gentiles and Jews who are followers of Christ are pictured here as branches.

Gentiles are not wild branches grafted into natural branches. We are grafted into the trunk of the tree. Now the passage does not specifically identify the trunk. We have an olive tree. We have branches. And we have a root AND what is described as “fatness.”

Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree...

When grafting a branch, it is not merely connected superficially to the bark of the trunk. It gets connected deep into the heart of the trunk. I believe that this is what the apostle has in mind with the term “fatness.” Our connection to the commonwealth of Israel is through our connection to Christ, not the other way around.

In other words, it is very important to keep in mind, Gentiles do not come to Christ by first becoming Jews. Yes, Jews and even the Gentile proselytes of Judaism, have a connection to Christ naturally through the commonwealth of Israel.

Paul is providing us a helpful illustration of the relationship between Jewish and Gentile followers of Christ. The admonition is to continue in faith and humility.